Sola Scriptura

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='20 September 2009 - 06:03 PM' timestamp='1253487816' post='1969954']
[font="Arial"][size="2"]I think it would be wise to point out that Tradition is not on trial here, and rather sola scriptura is on trial given the title of the thread.[/size][/font][font="Arial"][size="2"][color="#ff0000"][/color][/size][/font] [font="Arial"][size="2"][color="#ff0000"]Eagle Eye.....the debate between sola scriptura vs. an orally transmitted deposit of the faith, are two sides of the same coin. Each one is a logical [u]denial[/u] of the other. I have ruthlessly brought up the one example of "hierarchial subordination" as an example of just exactly what type of traditions the Roman Catholic Church is talking about when she bids us to ditch S as being both materially and formally insufficient to the believer. If these traditions merely consisted of facing east when praying, as a personal preference as some of the fathers suggest, I wouldn't be wasting my time here. But these are traditions that the Catholic Church are mandating as [u]salvific[/u], which I submit is fatal to the gospel. So the mention of this papal requirement is tangenital, but necessary.[/color][/size][/font]

[color="#0000ff"]Not if you are proving sola scriptura from a positive angle. Proving sola scriptura on the denial of something else does not legitimize sola scriptura. Basically, sola scriptura should be able to be proven from an affirmative argument.[/color]


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Even if the Bible claims sola scriptura, that alone doesn't prove it. If I have a book that just claims something, one should not just believe it blindly. [color="#ff0000"]You are correct. One should not just believe anything blindly as so many on these threads are prone to do by the one sentence declaration of another. As for the Bible, I contend that the doctrine of sola scriptura is indeed found implicity in its pages. That being said, you are now bringing up the trustworthiness of the Scriptures themselves, and just because it CLAIMS to be the word of God, that doesn't necessarily make it so. Well, the Bible is the only book wherein its main object; namely the Creator of the Universe, realizes we are a stubborn and stiff-necked people, but will actually PROVE He is God over against any and all imposters, by doing something no man could ever do: namely, [u]predict the future with 100% accuracy [/u](Deut 18:21-2, Isa 31:21-23, 42:8-9, 44:6-8, 45:20, 48:3-7, 48:12,14). Once we believe in His credibility, not to mention His claims of being Creator which is OBVIOUS by looking at the world around us, we then believe His word. And in that record, we note that He has magnified His word, even above His very name (Ps 138:2). Therefore, the doctrine of sola scriptura must logically follow.[/color]

[color="#0000ff"]I contend the papacy,Mary, and others is implicit in the Bible as well but you would say no.

Below are the verses you cited for the credibility/

Deut 18:21-22
21 'You may be privately wondering, "How are we to tell that a prophecy does not come from Yahweh?"
22 When a prophet speaks in the name of Yahweh and the thing does not happen and the word is not fulfilled, then it has not been said by Yahweh. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. You have nothing to fear from him.'

Isaiah 31:21-23

Uh, this chapter has 9 verses. I'm guessing you got the wrong chapter.

Isaiah 42:8-9

8 I am Yahweh, that is my name! I shall not yield my glory to another, nor my honour to idols.
9 See how the former predictions have come true. Fresh things I now reveal; before they appear I tell you of them.

Isaiah 44:6-8

6 Thus says Yahweh, Israel's king, Yahweh Sabaoth, his redeemer: I am the first and I am the last; there is no God except me.
7 Who is like me? Let him call out, let him affirm it and convince me it is so; let him say what has been happening since I instituted an eternal people, and predict to them what will happen next!
8 Have no fear, do not be afraid: have I not told you and revealed it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God except me? There is no Rock; I know of none.

Isaiah 45:20

20 Assemble, come, all of you gather round, survivors of the nations. They have no knowledge, those who parade their wooden idols and pray to a god that cannot save.

Isaiah 48:3-7

3 Things now past I revealed long ago, they issued from my mouth, I proclaimed them; suddenly I acted and they happened.
4 For I knew you to be obstinate, your neck an iron sinew and your forehead bronze.
5 As I told you about it long before, before it happened I revealed it to you, so that you could not say, 'My statue did it, my idol, my metal image, ordained this.'
6 You have heard and seen all this, why won't you admit it? Now I am going to reveal new things to you, secrets that you do not know;
7 they have just been created, not long ago, and until today you have heard nothing about them, so that you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew about this.'

Isaiah 48:12-14

12 Listen to me, Jacob, Israel whom I have called: I, and none else, am the first, I am also the last.
13 My hand laid the foundations of earth and my right hand spread out the heavens. I summon them and they all present themselves together.
14 Assemble, all of you, and listen; which of them has revealed this? Yahweh loves him; he will do his pleasure on Babylon and the race of the Chaldaeans;


Okay, after going through your citations, I don't see how this helps your argument. It's all a lot of talk and pretty much no evidence (or vague if at all) of God's credibility.
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The Church Fathers when examined do uphold Scripture and the Word of God, however, they never ultimately say "Bible alone." [color="#ff0000"]I'll quote Athanaius again to repeat my contention that his view is representative of this universal patristic principle:[/color][color="#ff0000"][/color] [color="#ff0000"]"THESE ARE THE FOUNTAINS OF SALVATION, THAT THEY WHO THIRST MAY BE SATISFIED WITH THE LIVING WORDS THAT THEY CONTAIN. [u]IN THESE ALONE[/u] IS PROCLAIMED THE DOCTRINE OF GODLINESS" (NPNF2, Vol 4, Letters of Athanatius, 1. Festal Letters, Letter 29). [/color][color="#ff0000"][/color][color="#ff0000"]If the early fathers were always endeavoring to prove their opinions from the text itself---personally, privately or publically, that ipso facto means that the Scriptures are more clear than the writings and commentaries of the fathers themselves! For no one ever proves what is unknown, by what is still yet more unknown (like an unwritten tradition).[/color]

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Sorry but that doesn't tell me what books should be in the Bible and it doesn't say sola scriptura. This the best the Church Fathers supposedly wrote on sola scriptura? It's kinda murky. Does "Living Words" only mean written word necessarily?

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Ultimately why is the Bible the sole authority? We've seen plenty of evidence that has been debated, however we have yet to see anything clearly say "Bible alone." [color="#ff0000"]Does not the example of Jesus hold any sway over you? He literally lived and breathed Scripture, as the 4 gospel accounts make absolutely undebatable. If He could hold TOWNSFOLK culpable for their ignorance of S, and He summoned it into service as the ultimate and sufficient source to correct and refute the opponents of His day, then its supreme authority in doctrinal matters should remain unquestioned. Selah repeatedly lambasted me for quoting the fathers who were utilizing S in the VERY MANNER WE SEE JESUS CHRIST USING IT; to combat the naysayers, and she obnoxiously asserted that using S in combat was no reason to suppse that was to be pivotal in the man of God's arsenal. However, the outfit described in Ephesians 6 (the shield of faith, etc...) INCLUDES the word of God which is the sword of the Spirit, and "is able to to quench all the firey darts of the wicked"......and no where do we find "tradition" listed among the ammunition we need in the battles ahead. [/color][/size][/font]

[color="#0000ff"]Yes Jesus referenced Scripture. Yes he used it in an authoritative way. I accept the authority of Scripture, however for different reasons than you. Also, he did not ever say "sola scriptura" and he did not tell his Apostles and disciples to write everything down so that others may believe what had been written down. There was an emphasis on preaching, speaking, etc. Word of God also is not limited to Scripture alone.


You still have not shown sola scriptura explicitly. Even if sola scriptura is implicit, how do we know which books belong in the Bible and who determined that? I am sure you would agree the Bible did not just fall from the sky but rather it was gathered together in the 400s or so.

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Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/norbertine+fathers+of+st.+michaels+abbey/track/tract+-+vinea+facta+est"]Norbertine Fathers of St. Michael's Abbey - Tract - Vinea Facta Est[/url]

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Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/norbertine+fathers+of+st.+michaels+abbey/track/tract+-+attende+coelum"]Norbertine Fathers of St. Michael's Abbey - Tract - Attende Coelum[/url]
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Oh...I haven't shown sola scriptura explicity? I see. And what exactly did YOU bring to the table to support YOUR position? NOTHING....except "i don't believe that, or "that's no evidence", or "you're just a lot of talk". Honestly! You don't command my respect in the least.
And what is this nonsense about the Lord not telling anyone to write? "WHAT THOU SEEST, WRITE IT IN A BOOK" (Rev 1:11). The last time you must have read the Bible was probably 10 years ago...if ever; a statement such as that is pristine proof you blindly believe whatever a most uninformed Catholic says, and INSTANTLY, it becomes ingrained in your conscience, nevermind about checking it out! And I could furnish you with 10 other references about writing it all in a book, but your esteem for Scripture is evidentally SOOO low, you don't deserve it. Besides, you wouldn't give it any weight whatsoever because it is clear the Scriptures hold absolutely no attraction for you. Sheesh! Do I feel sorry for you when Judgment Day rolls around.