Violence

[Secuutus]

I am in the military right now and I have been told that we might be shipped out to Afganistan in december, I was never for the war but I believed whole heartedly in serving my country. Every male on my father's side of my family has served, my dad, 2 uncles, 1 aunt, my grandfather in vietnam, all 5 of my male cousins. We knew what we were signing up for and we know what we might have to do. 2 of my oldest cousins were in operation feluja, and saw more action than anyone of us, and it has effected them tremendously. They are absolutely heart broken for what they had to do. They go to church everyday and go to confession once a week, and ask for forgiveness for what they did. They still don't feel forgiven, we have no idea what they go through. I don't think what they go through is a murderer's conscience. do you?
Is it wrong to want to serve our country and have to be sent over there because of 1 man? we didn't cause this war. We simply wanted to serve our country. We are not just defending Americas honor but we are simply denfending ourselves, because we have to. Are we to just simply lay our weapons down and be killed? would you do that?
I struggle everyday knowing that I have to kill someone, if I was ordered to go to afganistan. I will not dis-obey an order nor will I leave my country and desert it because a Man decided to go to war for his personal, unjust, ego. Im no quiter, and neaither are the millions of military service members, because thats one of the things seperates us from other regular people.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='17 September 2009 - 11:03 PM' timestamp='1253243017' post='1968407']
I have not contradicted myself. You can serve without killing. You can hide behind your orders but when you kill you've made that choice, not your superiors. Just remember that the chain of command in the millitary is made up of men, and you aleady had orders from something greater. I am not afraid to die, because dying will happen sooner or later. It is judgement after death I'm afraid of. So who do you fear most, Men or God?
[/quote]
So use of lethal force is never justifiable and always sinful? Does that apply to all violence?

[Christopher Brandon]

I know what your thinking. David slew goliath, but my profile explains my opinions.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='17 September 2009 - 11:37 PM' timestamp='1253245063' post='1968423']
I know what your thinking. David slew goliath, but my profile explains my opinions.
[/quote]
No, you don't know what I'm thinking, apparently. I'm not going to read your profile to get your opinion. Step up and argue if you're coming in the debate board with your half-baked pacifism, about which you've obviously never thought seriously.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='17 September 2009 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1253240868' post='1968380']

So you don't think that any of the wars Americans have fought in the last 180 years have been just?[/quote]

I did not say that all of the wars Americans have fought in the last180 years have been unjust. I said they were not fought to preventinvasion or occupation of the United State. It is legitimate to say "some of them fought to protect the freedom of people from other countries." It would be incorrect to say that they were "protecting your rights" or "protecting this country."


[quote]You could make the argument that the Revolutionary War was basically about money, so was the Civil War in a way. An argument could be made that no war is really necessary or just. I'm not capable of allowing myself to believe that the blood my ancestors spilled was in vain, unjust, or criminal.
[/quote]

This is why people continue to kill other people over material gain, at the behest of politicians. The motives of the individuals may be pure, but what they're actually accomplishing seldom changes. More people ought to realize that it is very rare that one kills to or dies while actually protecting innocent individuals. One shouldn't pick up a rifle to kill someone until an enemy actually poses an active threat.

War is nothing but the macrocosm of the principles of self-defense. It is merely men working together in concert to stop men who are aggressing in concert.

But human beings love drama. They love the sound of sabers rattling. They love the sound of war drums. They love to feel like they're a part of something bigger, but they can't channel desire into the Church Militant, so they settle for being simply militant. There's nothing I can say to convince anyone about it. I see nothing honorable in killing on behalf of politicians. No matter how much you believe you're "protecting Americans." If you need to defend other people, it should be done on your own dime. A standing army will always be abused by the politicians who pay them with other people's money. It's not their life, and it's not their money. They don't care how they use them. And the real tragedy is that they go willingly to their deaths, their heads and hearts full of the notion that they're protecting their fellow man. And it just isn't so.

So, you'll have to excuse me if I cannot bring myself to believe that even 5% of the people who killed other people in the past 10,000 years did so justly. If I refuse to honor the memory of someone for the mere fact that they took up arms and served the State, even while they really believed they were "protecting their fellow man." That's not patriotism. That's nationalism.

Please look up a speech by United State Marine Corps General Smedley Butler. He received the Medal of Honor. Twice. He will tell you what he fought for. He will tell you what he killed for. He will tell you precisely whom he protected. The speech is called, "War Is A Racket."

~Sternhauser

[Winchester]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='18 September 2009 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1253246937' post='1968440']
So, you'll have to excuse me if I cannot bring myself to believe that even 5% of the people who killed other people in the past 10,000 years did so justly. If I refuse to honor the memory of someone for the mere fact that they took up arms and served the State, even while they really believed they were "protecting their fellow man." That's not patriotism. That's nationalism.
[/quote]
And I'm sure you'll excuse me them if they really don't give poo what you think.

You had me until you made it personal with each soldier. On behalf of them for your arrogant judgment, [mod]Just saving you guys the trouble--Winnie[/mod]

[Secuutus]

Socrates even said that "patriotism does not require one to agree with everything that his country does" Like I said I don't agree with the war, but I love my country enough to serve it.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Winchester' date='18 September 2009 - 12:23 AM' timestamp='1253247783' post='1968448']
And I'm sure you'll excuse me them if they really don't give poo what you think.

You had me until you made it personal with each soldier. On behalf of them for your arrogant judgment, [mod]Just saving you guys the trouble--Winnie[/mod]
[/quote]

Winchester,

That's fine. I won't force you or them to accept my worldview. I've never threatened them for speaking their mind, or for speaking out against my worldview. But many have threatened me with violence for speaking out against their worldview. They think that they can defend "honor" with their fists. They think that they can change minds and ideas with physical violence. They're wrong. From a personal point of view, it doesn't bother me that they don't care what I think. From a Catholic point of view, it really bothers me that they don't take a sober look at the things I try to tell them.

The following statement is one that sounds nearly [i]identical[/i] to what some of my Catholic military acquaintances have said to me. "We weren't in [name of overseas area of operations] to kill human beings, really. We were there to kill an ideology that is carried by - Idon't know - pawns, blobs, pieces of flesh. I was there to destroyan intangible idea. To destroy [ideology]. Killing those men in [name of overseas area of operations] didn't haunt me." The man speaking those words? Lieutenant William Calley. I'm sure you know who he was. For the rest of you, the place was My Lai village, Viet Nam. The ideology was Communism. William Calley led a massacre of between 100 and 500 human beings. Calley himself shot a toddler who was running away. I invite everyone to read about it.
[url="http://tinyurl.com/nzewwo"]http://tinyurl.com/nzewwo[/url]

Do I think that Calley didn't have the best of intentions when going over to Viet Nam? He doubtless did. So do most people who go off to war. Nobody grows up pretending to be a soldier who machineguns innocents and watches their pretend lifeless bodies pitch forward into a pretend mass grave. Nevertheless, these young men put themselves in horrible situations, unnecessarily, and imprudently. That is where the trouble lies. It is not in their good intentions. It is in their lack of prudence and sobriety in making their life-altering decisions.

One of my Tridentine-rite loving Catholic acquaintances gleefully told me how he looked forward to "separating body-soul composites," and "killing hadjis." His mindset is shared by several other of my Catholic acquaintances. These are supposed Catholics. If this is what Tridentine Catholics, steeped in the teachings of the Church, are eagerly looking forward to, what about the [i]average[/i] soldier? What is [i]he[/i] looking forward to?

No, it does not bother me what they think, on a personal level. I do worry about what their decision to join the military will do to them, their spouses, their children. And I mourn for the broken souls and broken bodies that they will leave behind when they go 5,000 miles away to kill someone, while claiming "they were just about to take our freedoms."

I will never sing the praises of anyone whose training includes wilful participation in singing along to cadences such as "Napalm Sticks To Kids" and songs about "throwing candy to the children, waiting until they gather round, then blowing those little [unpleasant word] down." I sang them myself, in an uglier, un-Catholic age. The intent is to desensitize you to killing everyone and everything. It's a bad goal. And it doesn't work.


-Sternhauser

Edited September 18, 2009 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Secuutus' date='18 September 2009 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1253249456' post='1968468']
Socrates even said that "patriotism does not require one to agree with everything that his country does" Like I said I don't agree with the war, but I love my country enough to serve it.
[/quote]

What is your country, Secuutus? Is it the State and its politicians? Or is it your neighbors, their freedom, their customs and the land on which you all live? I am certain you would say "the latter."

I guarantee you, that even if their lives and land were threatened by someone living 4,000 miles away, there is nothing that you going over there and killing people would do to prevent it. Afghanistan and Iraq pose absolutely no threat of invasion and occupation. They never did. There is nothing anyone can do to prevent any number of determined individuals from coming over here across any border, bringing whatever they want, and making September 11th look like a teddy bear's picnic. Tons, literally tons of cocaine, marijuana and heroin cross the borders every year. What is stopping some of those containers from being filled with jihadists and a few kilos of semtex? Absolutely nothing. And that includes your potential actions and killing overseas.

With all respect and sincerity, I tell you: you won't be accomplishing anything good over there. You will be doing nothing but stirring up more anger against the United State and the people who live under it.

~Sternhauser

[Secuutus]

will I go to hell if I am sent over seas and I killed someone who was trying to kill me?

1 of my cousins recieved the purple heart, long with 2 other Marines, for saving 2 of his fellow platoon men while they were pinned down in a closed off ally,and kiled 4. He said he can see there faces also, and he knew exactly what he was doing. Will he go to hell? Is he to be judged because he did what he had to for survival? Is he not a patriot for saving those men, fellow americans? He is Catholic, we all are. We will never use force against someone who doesn't deserve it, nor will we engage in force unless our lives depended on it.

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 September 2009 - 09:45 AM' timestamp='1253195106' post='1968026']
Maximilianus,

In your estimation, which military action ordered by United State (not a typo) government politicians in the past 50 years has met all of the requirements of the just war theory?

-Sternhauser
[/quote]

The OP asked Can a Catholic be a soldier. It's obvious the Church has no problem with it.
That's good enough for me.

As for a conflict that has met all the requirements, all I can say is that it's easy to pick a war apart in retrospect.
I don't feel like playing that game.

For my own conscience something I look at and take into account is the objective of the action; Was the overall mission a deliberate effort to destroy non combatants and property. Was the objective of the war to subjegate, oppress, exploit, or exterminate people? Did the ROE's set up minimization for collateral damage?

Every conflict, no matter how just the seem, will have it's concerns wether or not they are just, if you rack your cranium about such things then maybe the military isn't the right vocation for you.

Something to think about, St. Maurice and about 6600 of his men were massacred because they refused to sacrifice to pagan gods, not becuase they refused to fight. This shows that in ancient times Christians were not prohibited from military service or even be active in warfighting.

"Idolatry is committed, not merely by setting up false gods, but also by setting up false devils; by making men afraid of war or alcohol, or economic law, when they should be afraid of spiritual corruption and cowardice." - GKC

[Nihil Obstat]

What the heck is a "Tridentine Catholic"? Term that I don't think exists, to be honest.

[Secuutus]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='18 September 2009 - 01:29 AM' timestamp='1253251767' post='1968497']
What the heck is a "Tridentine Catholic"? Term that I don't think exists, to be honest.
[/quote]


Im with you on that one!

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Secuutus' date='18 September 2009 - 01:17 AM' timestamp='1253251031' post='1968492']
will I go to hell if I am sent over seas and I killed someone who was trying to kill me?[/quote]

Perhaps. It depends on the justice of your presence. Would you go to hell if you were told to rob a bank by a politician, and shot and killed a bank guard who tried to stop you?

[quote]1 of my cousins recieved the purple heart, long with 2 other Marines, for saving 2 of his fellow platoon men while they were pinned down in a closed off ally,and kiled 4. He said he can see there faces also, and he knew exactly what he was doing. Will he go to hell? Is he to be judged because he did what he had to for survival? Is he not a patriot for saving those men, fellow americans? He is Catholic, we all are.[/quote]

I won't judge your cousin's soul. But I have a question for you: if the Russians were in this country, saying that they're there to rout out potentially violent people, and are here for years, would you be pinning them down in a closed-off alley? Would you be planting bombs to destroy BMP-2's as they passed by? Answer that, and you'll have a better understanding of the moral quality of killing "insurgents."

[quote]We will never use force against someone who doesn't deserve it, nor will we engage in force unless our lives depended on it.
[/quote]

Many dating couples, with the best of intentions, say they will never fornicate, then, unfortunately, they proceed to willingly put themselves in very compromising situations which are not at all conducive to their intended goal of maintaining chastity. I think the analogy transfers well.

~Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='18 September 2009 - 01:29 AM' timestamp='1253251767' post='1968497']
What the heck is a "Tridentine Catholic"? Term that I don't think exists, to be honest.
[/quote]

Nihil Obstat,

The term "Google it" was unheard of, 15 years ago. The term "didn't exist." People understand what it means, however. A Tridentine Catholic is a Catholic who prefers the "Extraordinary form of the Mass" (there's a term I hadn't heard until recently, myself.) I think you understood the meaning, so I'm confused as to why you feel the need to comment on it.

~Sternhauser