Violence

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='16 September 2009 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1253152496' post='1967879']
Oh, i followed you around like a puppy dog.
[/quote]
There are many of us who still do

[Maximilianus]

[url="http://www.milarch.org/"]Archdiocese for the Military Services, USA[/url]

Ooh rah, Semper Fi!

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Maximilianus' date='17 September 2009 - 01:45 AM' timestamp='1253166353' post='1967979']
[url="http://www.milarch.org/"]Archdiocese for the Military Services, USA[/url]

Ooh rah, Semper Fi!
[/quote]

Maximilianus,

In your estimation, which military action ordered by United State (not a typo) government politicians in the past 50 years has met all of the requirements of the just war theory?

-Sternhauser

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 September 2009 - 08:45 AM' timestamp='1253195106' post='1968026']
Maximilianus,

In your estimation, which military action ordered by United State (not a typo) government politicians in the past 50 years has met all of the requirements of the just war theory?

-Sternhauser
[/quote]
I don't see how that's strictly relevant to a post about the Archdiocese of Military Service. The Archdiocese is a wonderful thing no matter what unjust wars the soldiers may or may not be participating in.
Just sayin'...

[Varg]

害人之心不可有

[CatherineM]

Even when placed in a potentially unjust war scenario, those decisions are made way up the chain of command. For the soldier in the mud, they aren't really worried about global this or that, they are only interested in keeping themselves alive, and their friends next to them. If the war doesn't meet the just war requirements, the men and women fighting it fall underneath protecting their lives and defending those next to them.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='17 September 2009 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1253211226' post='1968116']
Even when placed in a potentially unjust war scenario, those decisions are made way up the chain of command. For the soldier in the mud, they aren't really worried about global this or that, they are only interested in keeping themselves alive, and their friends next to them. If the war doesn't meet the just war requirements, the men and women fighting it fall underneath protecting their lives and defending those next to them.
[/quote]

Catherine,

If a soldier fighting a war knows, or has good reason to suspect that that the war he is prosecuting is, in fact, an unjust war, does he not sin by continuing to fight in that war? Were the individual German soldiers invading Poland, Belgium and France morally justified in killing those who were justly defending their homeland? If a man dies protecting his fellow unjust aggressor from those who are justly defending their homeland, is it really a virtuous act?

~Sternhauser

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 September 2009 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1253231037' post='1968275']
Catherine,

If a soldier fighting a war knows, or has good reason to suspect that that the war he is prosecuting is, in fact, an unjust war, does he not sin by continuing to fight in that war? Were the individual German soldiers invading Poland, Belgium and France morally justified in killing those who were justly defending their homeland? If a man dies protecting his fellow unjust aggressor from those who are justly defending their homeland, is it really a virtuous act?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
You are allowed to disobey an unlawful order in the US military. I imagine that you can as well in the Canadian military, but I haven't gotten that far in studying for my citizenship test. The basic private isn't normally a theologian. They can only deal with what is in front of them. They are individuals under someone else's authority. Now if the Pope comes out and says that a war is unjust, and Catholics can't participate, then I'd become a conscientious objector. In the real world, outside of a philosophy classroom, things often happen too fast and are too complex for that type of black and white definitive statement. Our Pope never made that type of statement against what the Nazi's were doing, and that was clearly unjust from their prospective. However, even if he had, a soldier in a trench, being attacked by the other justified side, can still defend his life, even if his side was unjust in starting the war.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='17 September 2009 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1253234122' post='1968304']
You are allowed to disobey an unlawful order in the US military.[/quote]

Only a handful of people in history have done so. This is proof either that the United State politicians are very effective inconvincing people that unjust wars are just, or that every war theUnited State has ever waged has been justified. The former is very likely. The latter is a falsehood.


[quote name ='CatherineM'] I imagine that you can as well in the Canadian military, but I haven't gotten that far in studying for my citizenship test. The basic private isn't normally a theologian. They can only deal with what is in front of them. They are individuals under someone else's authority.[/quote]


[quote]Now if the Pope comes out and says that a war is unjust, and Catholics can't participate, then I'd become a conscientious objector. In the real world, outside of a philosophy classroom, things often happen too fast and are too complex for that type of black and white definitive statement.[/quote]

The Pope said just that about the war in Iraq. He did not go so far as to say that "Catholics can't participate," but then, did he really have to, after saying, "This war does not fulfill the requirements of the just war doctrine?"

[quote] However, even if he had, a soldier in a trench, being attacked by the other justified side, can still defend his life, even if his side was unjust in starting the war.
[/quote]

I do not believe that to be correct at all. If you are participating in a robbery, you do not have the right to kill those who are justly defending their lives and property. You may avoid them, but you may not prosecute further unjust aggression upon them than you already have.

I think a Catholic should know better than to put himself in the service of politicians. I think a Catholic should know better than to believe that picking up a rifle at the behest of the State is prudent even 5 per cent of the time. I think a Catholic should be able to see right through the hubris of propaganda, and not believe the pleasant, honorable-sounding lie that whoever the politicians are sending you to kill, are being killed to ensure that "the country is safe." Even the Germans in WWII were convinced this was the case, as they marched into Poland, Belgium, France and Italy.

If and when a real threat to one's neighbors and land becomes imminent, it will be obvious to all that an unjust aggressor is upon them. As it is, there has not been a war in the past 180 years that has actually protected the United State from invasion and prolonged occupation. No country ever had the logistical capability to invade, let alone sustain an occupation. Not the Germans, not the Japanese, and not even the Russians. The Afghanis and the Vietnamese taught the world how they could defeat much more powerful aggressors. Each of them did so at least twice. One of them is going for a third time.

-Sternhauser

[Christopher Brandon]

If you join the Millitary then I am proud of you. There are many jobs within the millitary to help out our nation and others.

But killing is wrong. Period. If it is Gods will your enemy dies then it will come to pass without you. Who are we to decide wich one of us deserves to live more then the other? because you love the man behind makes it right to kill the stranger before you? Let the one worthy of judgment judge.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='17 September 2009 - 09:33 PM' timestamp='1253237584' post='1968341']
If you join the Millitary then I am proud of you. There are many jobs within the millitary to help out our nation and others.

But killing is wrong. Period. If it is Gods will your enemy dies then it will come to pass without you. Who are we to decide wich one of us deserves to live more then the other? because you love the man behind makes it right to kill the stranger before you? Let the one worthy of judgment judge.
[/quote]

Christopher Brandon,

Your points seem contradictory. First, you are happy that someone would join a military, because "there are many jobs within the military to help our nation and others." Then, you say, "Killing is wrong. Period." What is the military but a group of people who either kill other people, or facilitate the killing of others in either logistical or moral support roles? Are you saying it is moral to be a member of an organization, the intrinsic nature of which is to kill or facilitate killing?

I do not believe that killing is intrinsically wrong. It is a natural evil, but morally neutral. Deliberately killing innocents is always wrong. And militaries seem to be monuments to this kind of killing. Dresden, London, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. All these cities were deliberately targeted by men in the military to intentionally slaughter civilians as an avowed means of "helping people." Their slaughter was proximately and materially assisted by a chain of other men in the same militaries.

In the case of self-defense against an unjust aggressor, you are making the choice to defend yourself. Whether he dies or lives in the act of your self-defense is not imputed to your conscience. The aggressor is making the choice to forfeit his life in the course of his aggressive act. He decides whose life is more important. I do not even believe, nor is a Catholic required to believe, that intending to kill an unjust aggressor is wrong. The executioner of the State, for example. How can the individuals in society bestow upon him a right that they themselves do not have? Or would anyone propose that God himself gives the special power over life or death to this individual?

-Sternhauser

[CatherineM]

My father was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross in WWII for sinking a German U-boat. He said it had about 50 men on board. It was firing on a troop transport that had troops from the British 18th Division on it. They dropped charges that forced the sub to surface. They were given the opportunity to surrender, but instead manned their surface guns. He said he could see the faces of the men he killed as the sub went down. That transport had several thousand men on board.

So you don't think that any of the wars Americans have fought in the last 180 years have been just? You could make the argument that the Revolutionary War was basically about money, so was the Civil War in a way. An argument could be made that no war is really necessary or just. I'm not capable of allowing myself to believe that the blood my ancestors spilled was in vain, unjust, or criminal.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 September 2009 - 07:43 PM' timestamp='1253231037' post='1968275']
Catherine,

If a soldier fighting a war knows, or has good reason to suspect that that the war he is prosecuting is, in fact, an unjust war, does he not sin by continuing to fight in that war? Were the individual German soldiers invading Poland, Belgium and France morally justified in killing those who were justly defending their homeland? If a man dies protecting his fellow unjust aggressor from those who are justly defending their homeland, is it really a virtuous act?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
Culpability requires more than simply knowledge.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='17 September 2009 - 09:33 PM' timestamp='1253237584' post='1968341']
If you join the Millitary then I am proud of you. There are many jobs within the millitary to help out our nation and others.

But killing is wrong. Period. If it is Gods will your enemy dies then it will come to pass without you. Who are we to decide wich one of us deserves to live more then the other? because you love the man behind makes it right to kill the stranger before you? Let the one worthy of judgment judge.
[/quote]
Pacifism takes all the fun out of being a pagan.

[Christopher Brandon]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 September 2009 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1253238830' post='1968355']
Christopher Brandon,

Your points seem contradictory. First, you are happy that someone would join a military, because "there are many jobs within the military to help our nation and others." Then, you say, "Killing is wrong. Period." What is the military but a group of people who either kill other people, or facilitate the killing of others in either logistical or moral support roles? Are you saying it is moral to be a member of an organization, the intrinsic nature of which is to kill or facilitate killing?

I do not believe that killing is intrinsically wrong. It is a natural evil, but morally neutral. Deliberately killing innocents is always wrong. And militaries seem to be monuments to this kind of killing. Dresden, London, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. All these cities were deliberately targeted by men in the military to intentionally slaughter civilians as an avowed means of "helping people." Their slaughter was proximately and materially assisted by a chain of other men in the same militaries.

In the case of self-defense against an unjust aggressor, you are making the choice to defend yourself. Whether he dies or lives in the act of your self-defense is not imputed to your conscience. The aggressor is making the choice to forfeit his life in the course of his aggressive act. He decides whose life is more important. I do not even believe, nor is a Catholic required to believe, that intending to kill an unjust aggressor is wrong. The executioner of the State, for example. How can the individuals in society bestow upon him a right that they themselves do not have? Or would anyone propose that God himself gives the special power over life or death to this individual?

-Sternhauser
[/quote]

I have not contradicted myself. You can serve without killing. You can hide behind your orders but when you kill you've made that choice, not your superiors. Just remember that the chain of command in the millitary is made up of men, and you aleady had orders from something greater. I am not afraid to die, because dying will happen sooner or later. It is judgement after death I'm afraid of. So who do you fear most, Men or God?