bmb144 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Ok, now that I am finally back on top of things, I'd like to settle once and for all the things that urk me about Catholicism. They are the following- Papal primacy Infallibility Trinity Abortion Could someone please point me toward clear answers on the churches stance on these issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Hi, It might help to post specific questions on these issues, too, so people can perhaps address your concerns more specifically. As for resources, have you checked out the new resource section here? Fr Cappie also posted a website that seems pretty good: [url="http://www.askacatholic.com/index.cfm"]AskACatholic.com[/url]. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Immaculata Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 The Teaching on Papal Primacy: [quote]880 When Christ instituted the Twelve, "he constituted [them] in the form of a college or permanent assembly, at the head of which he placed Peter, chosen from among them."398 Just as "by the Lord's institution, St. Peter and the rest of the apostles constitute a single apostolic college, so in like fashion the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are related with and united to one another."399 881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock.400 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head."401 This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope. 882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403 [/quote] Infallibility: [quote]890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms: 891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421 [/quote] The Trinity: [quote]237 The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the "mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God".58 To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel's faith before the Incarnation of God's Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit. [/quote] Abortion: [quote]2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74 2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law: You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75 God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76 2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society. [/quote] These are all taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the definitive teachings of The Church. If you'd like more information, a searchable, online version of the CCC is here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm The teachings are organized by numbered paragraphs, so if you wanted to know more about any of the above areas you could read the paragraphs around the ones I've quoted here, or ask and I'll answer you as best I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmb144 Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 Archaeology Cat- Thanks. That's the type of resource I've been looking for. Son of Immaculata- Please don't quote catechism with no historical context. I am a theology undergrad [third year of a 5 year program] so I'm quite familiar with the catechism but I need due to my theology training to place it in its historical context. I also need to use the exegesis training I have to look at the scriptures as well that are in the catechism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Immaculata Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 [quote name='In His Light' date='20 September 2009 - 05:03 AM' timestamp='1253440995' post='1969574'] Archaeology Cat- Thanks. That's the type of resource I've been looking for. Son of Immaculata- Please don't quote catechism with no historical context. I am a theology undergrad [third year of a 5 year program] so I'm quite familiar with the catechism but I need due to my theology training to place it in its historical context. I also need to use the exegesis training I have to look at the scriptures as well that are in the catechism. [/quote] Forgive me for trying to help. From you first post you sounded like you were new to Catholicism and wanted to know what the Church's teachings were (maybe because you say you wanted a definitive stance and it doesn't get much clearer than the catechism, which is THE teaching). You'll also note that I linked you to the site where I found the quotes, so you could look up the scripture verses used in the CCC. I'll leave you to your theology degree. My only advice is to not be so vague in your requests if what you want is so specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Okay, you don't want quotes from the CCC, so I'm going to assume you'd say the same about canon law, so I thought I'd try scripture. Papal primacy- Matthew 16:18-19, Mark 16:7, Daniel 2:44, 7:14, Luke 22:32, 24:34, John 21:17, Acts 1:13-26, 2:14, 2:41, 3:6-7, 5:1-11, 8:21, 10:44-46, 15:7, 15:19, Galatians 1:18. Infallibility-John 16:13, 14:26, Luke 10:16, 1 Timothy 3:15, 1John 2:27, Acts 15:28, Matthew 28:20. Also St. Irenaeus' Against Heresies, For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God, there the Church and every grace. The Spirit, however, is Truth." Trinity- As to that, I think Christ telling us to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit should be enough. Abortion - I can't think of a reason that any Christian would find abortion acceptable, so I can't imagine what quote would work for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmb144 Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 *sigh* CCC is acceptable when not used in isolation. Canon law is acceptable when not used in isolation. That web site is prime example of the use of CCC, Bible and Church fathers not in isolation but as an integrated and whole theology which is how I'd prefer to get my answers and how I am taught to gain them. In the theology degree I am in, we are not allowed to use any degree of bias or speak from our own faith traditions. Bias and faith based assignments are marked down ruthlessly. It was one of my lecturers who challenged me to look objectively at the faith I walked away from, so I asked the question I did. I was even thinking about maybe coming back... I'll think twice in future about posting here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 To be fair IHL, perhaps if you reread your response, you can see why it might seem snappish or condescending. However communicating online is hard, so it's easy for us to misunderstand each other. For the abortion issue see the Didache in combination with CCC 2270. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='In His Light' date='20 September 2009 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1253490797' post='1969983'] *sigh* CCC is acceptable when not used in isolation. Canon law is acceptable when not used in isolation. That web site is prime example of the use of CCC, Bible and Church fathers not in isolation but as an integrated and whole theology which is how I'd prefer to get my answers and how I am taught to gain them. In the theology degree I am in, we are not allowed to use any degree of bias or speak from our own faith traditions. Bias and faith based assignments are marked down ruthlessly. It was one of my lecturers who challenged me to look objectively at the faith I walked away from, so I asked the question I did. I was even thinking about maybe coming back... I'll think twice in future about posting here... [/quote] I don't see why you're so keen to blame other people for not magically being able to understand exactly how you wanted your answers. Maybe clearer objectives would have helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='In His Light' date='20 September 2009 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1253490797' post='1969983'] *sigh* CCC is acceptable when not used in isolation. Canon law is acceptable when not used in isolation. That web site is prime example of the use of CCC, Bible and Church fathers not in isolation but as an integrated and whole theology which is how I'd prefer to get my answers and how I am taught to gain them. In the theology degree I am in, we are not allowed to use any degree of bias or speak from our own faith traditions. Bias and faith based assignments are marked down ruthlessly. It was one of my lecturers who challenged me to look objectively at the faith I walked away from, so I asked the question I did. I was even thinking about maybe coming back... I'll think twice in future about posting here... [/quote] I would first like to address your final statement, "I'll think twice in future about posting here...". Comments like that will get you nowhere here on Phatmass or in life. When you start a topic and ask [quote]Ok, now that I am finally back on top of things, I'd like to settle once and for all the things that urk me about Catholicism. They are the following- Papal primacy Infallibility Trinity Abortion Could someone please point me toward clear answers on the churches stance on these issues? [/quote] This post says nothing about you needing historical context, so your rather uncharitable sounding comment toward Son of Immaculata is rather unacceptable. Since you did not reveal why you needed the answer and the qualification the answer would need to have, then you are way off base for responding in such a manner. If you needed more of a historical critical approach toward these issues then you should have stated so in your first post. Son of the Immaculata gave the simplest manner in which to express the Church's teachings on the subject you asked about. The Catechism gives clear answers to the topics, so that is what he gave you. Stating a clear objective would be most appropriate in this case. My suggestion is to use the scripture quotes that CatherineM has provide for the various topics and below of I have listed some verses that approach the subject of life in the womb and abortion, the Old Testament is your best source for clear objections against abortion or attacks on women who are pregnant. Job 31:15 Psalm 22:9-10 Psalm 139:13-16 Isaiah 44:2 Isaiah 46:3-4 Isaiah 49:5 Jeremiah 1:4-5 Luke 1:41-42, 44 Using these verses with commentaries such as the Oxford Bible Commentary for a more historical critical approach (this is a Protestant Commentary), The Haydock Commentary will provide you with a more Patristics approach to these verses (Catholic Commentary), the Narrave Bible Commentary will give a Spiritual approach to the matter (Catholic Commentary), Commentaries by Raymond Browm will give a historical critical approach. You can use the Catechism as a source to show the Church's stance on such matters with reinforcement from the scriptural approach you have first taken. You can bring in Canon Law in the same manner as well as Church documents such as Dominum Et Vivificantem, Laborem Exercens, Humane Vitae, Sollicitudo Rei Socialis, Ut Unum Sint, Veritatis Splendor, etc. These documents will giving historical background, scripture, Catechism, Church Fathers, medical document, statistics, etc. btw, I'm a little confused. Are you searching out these questions for yourself or for an assignment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 +J.M.J.+ i guess for the abortion issue, i always imagine Christ saying, "oh, no, go ahead and kill one of my little ones. i'm totally okay with that." for some reason, i just can't imagine Him doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='StColette' date='21 September 2009 - 12:08 PM' timestamp='1253556536' post='1970483'] You can use the Catechism as a source to show the Church's stance on such matters with reinforcement from the scriptural approach you have first taken. You can bring in Canon Law in the same manner as well as Church documents such as Dominum Et Vivificantem, Laborem Exercens, Humane Vitae, Sollicitudo Rei Socialis, Ut Unum Sint, Veritatis Splendor, etc. These documents will giving historical background, scripture, Catechism, Church Fathers, medical document, statistics, etc. btw, I'm a little confused. Are you searching out these questions for yourself or for an assignment? [/quote] +J.M.J.+ correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the Catechism also reference several documents as 'backup'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='Lil Red' date='21 September 2009 - 02:17 PM' timestamp='1253557025' post='1970493'] +J.M.J.+ correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the Catechism also reference several documents as 'backup'? [/quote] It does as does Canon Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='Lil Red' date='21 September 2009 - 02:17 PM' timestamp='1253557025' post='1970493'] +J.M.J.+ correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the Catechism also reference several documents as 'backup'? [/quote] It references a lot more than just the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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