Cultural Differences And Religious Life

[InHisLove726]

An phone interview with a Carmelite Nun this evening got me to thinking about cultural differences in religious life. To explain the background of my topic, the nun I spoke to was Chinese, from Hong Kong, as is her order. She told me there were 8 nuns in her order, all of them Chinese. They were hoping to one day be international. I had written them, along with 5 others, in my quest for the order I felt called to discern with. Their website was beautiful and that's why I decided to write them. However, the Sister asked me if I knew they were Chinese, and I did not (their website had some glitches and I wasn't able to read everything). She wondered, out loud, if this would be a problem in my discernment, and I think I had some misgivings about it. When I spoke to her on the phone, we had trouble understanding each other. I pretty much knew that the two orders I am in contact with right now (Denmark, WI and Buffalo, NY) are the only ones I am interested in pursuing, so rather than waste her time and money on long distance phone calls, I was honest with her and told her that I was in contact with the two other orders and that I thought I should concentrate solely on them for the time being. I've found it difficult to discern with more than two, so I didn't want to add another to the mix.

But it really got me to thinking. Would it be more difficult in an order were I was the only American? The nun I spoke to said that she lived in America when she was younger, but she is originally from Hong Kong. She speaks English really well, but her accent made her difficult to understand (plus the phone line was cracking since it was long distance). I had to strain to understand what she was saying, and so did she. Both of us were asking questions twice because I was answering the wrong way, or I couldn't understand her. I was rather embarrassed.

I ended the conversation politely and told her that I would definitely get back in contact if I felt that I wanted to discern with them further, either by phone or by mail. I know I'm not declining to join or discern with them because of cultural differences, but I was wondering if it was ever a problem in anybody else's discernment? Had a Sister ever contacted you and you couldn't quite understand them? What came out of it?

[PrayerSupporter]

[quote name='InHisLove726' date='09 September 2009 - 08:53 PM' timestamp='1252544014' post='1964115']
But it really got me to thinking. Would it be more difficult in an order were I was the only American?
[/quote]

Hello, InHisLove726,

I can't offer you any personal experience with your question, but your train of thought reminded me of a book I read a long time ago. It was called An American Nun in Taiwan by Sister Mary Paul. Sister Mary Paul is an American who joined a Chinese religious order. In the book she talks of her difficulties and adjustments both while she was discerning with the order and after she joined -- the language, food, differences in viewpoints, etc. It might be an interesting read for anyone considering such a possibility. Here is a 2008 update on her: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0803824.htm

If anyone is interested in reading the book but cannot find it, be sure to check your local library. If they do not have a copy in the library they should be able to order one via interlibrary loan.

PrayerSupporter

[InHisLove726]

Wow, I didn't know about that book. It sounds interesting. I may have to look into it.

I also forgot to mention that the nun I spoke to was an aspirant in a different religious community. She was going to enter a community that was just starting in Rome and was the only Chinese woman of 3 nuns. The other two were Italian, so she understood if I had apprehensions (even though I didn't voice any).

[VeniteAdoremus]

You have a very good point there. I think cultural differences can be [i]huge[/i]. I used to think that if there are no [i]language[/i] problems there wouldn't be any [i]communication[/i] problems, but this is definitely not the case. I think many people here could talk about the difference between America and England, let alone America and China!

When we read saint's lives, and all their travelling about, I think it becomes a bit too easy to make light of cultural differences. It's not easy. I would say one needs to have both a good sense of self and a very strong adaptability to be able to do that, beyond the levels that are already needed for the religious life (which, as many here can also testify, aren't exactly negligible either).

I think it would be easier for people like me in apostolic communities than it would be in Carmel or other contemplative groups. Because as I was told by a Dutch-speaking Briton (who helped me curb my Dutch-ness in e-mails: "okay, the sisters are going to read this like you wrote [i]this[/i], is that what you want?") when misunderstandings arise, you need to sort them out [i]there and then[/i]. This is difficult in any place with "times and places of silence", but especially so, I would imagine, in Carmel.

It's great that you're bringing this up. Not to get overly worried, but because it's another thing that needs discernment, if it comes up.

[juchu]

I think this topic is great. When I did a social year in Brazil after finishing high school I lived and worked with sisters of an apostolic congregation and it was also the time when I first got thinking of that whole vocation thing by actually living like they did. Before I had just handled this as an additional experience to do something "good", to see more from the world and because it fits in my curriculum vitae...

I found it very difficult to discern whether the problems that aroused (well, it were not too many, but of course there were some happenings during one year, which also were not just my "fault"!) happened because I was not fit for that life or because it was because it was a different culture than I (the average european 19year old with a strong will of freedom and used to take her own decision ...) was used to.

And although it is really easy for me to learn new languages, it takes quite a time until you really feel comfortable and free to express everything in that language.

I am really thankful to that community for all the experiences, but I decided to continue my search within Europe. I guess especially during the formation process it is really helpful not to have to deal with too many cultural conflicts, because one has enough to do to focus on their own interior conflicts! If I should end up in some missionary congregation, that sends me to the end of the world, then it is all right

Since right now the community I am discerning with most is mainly french speaking, my journey of language study is beginning again But although within Europe there are still many cultural differences, i found that it is not such big of a deal than as if you are changing continents

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' date='10 September 2009 - 05:38 AM' timestamp='1252575496' post='1964370']
You have a very good point there. I think cultural differences can be [i]huge[/i]. I used to think that if there are no [i]language[/i] problems there wouldn't be any [i]communication[/i] problems, but this is definitely not the case. I think many people here could talk about the [b]difference between America and England[/b], let alone America and China!

When we read saint's lives, and all their travelling about, I think it becomes a bit too easy to make light of cultural differences. It's not easy. I would say one needs to have both a good sense of self and a very strong adaptability to be able to do that, beyond the levels that are already needed for the religious life (which, as many here can also testify, aren't exactly negligible either).

I think it would be easier for people like me in apostolic communities than it would be in Carmel or other contemplative groups. Because as I was told by a Dutch-speaking Briton (who helped me curb my Dutch-ness in e-mails: "okay, the sisters are going to read this like you wrote [i]this[/i], is that what you want?") when misunderstandings arise, you need to sort them out [i]there and then[/i]. This is difficult in any place with "times and places of silence", but especially so, I would imagine, in Carmel.

It's great that you're bringing this up. Not to get overly worried, but because it's another thing that needs discernment, if it comes up.
[/quote]

*emphasis mine*

When you mentioned this, I remembered that Annie (nunsense) was dismissed because of this very reason. Cultural difference isn't just for language barriers. Different countries have different ways of doing things. I know the English language in England is different than English in America, so I probably would have difficulty understanding the words and vice versa. By all means, go where you are called, but it's important to remember that if you decide to go to another country, there will be cultural barriers. I would pray that it would be possible to get past them, but it might not be the case.

[Thomist-in-Training]

It's a very interesting question to me as, God willing, I am going to enter a contemplative monastery in Italy. I'll be the third non-native of Italy (well, I suppose it could depend how long the process takes!), though one of the two others lived in Italy for several years as a young woman. I did get to stay inside enclosure for two and a half weeks and it wasn't so bad. Potpourri of experiences:

[list]For the first week or so, I really couldn't understand the Abbess. I could understand the other sisters, though. That was trying for us both, I think.

Some customs that are different from American lay life are both Italian and monastic: regular Italians and nuns in Italy and America both eat their main meal at lunchtime.

Some cultural differences were in my favor: the nuns drink delicious coffee for breakfast and sometimes as a pick-me-up in the afternoon.

In many, many ways I felt like a child again. Not in a bad way, but in a way that I had good intentions but didn't know much and had to learn how everything worked, how to eat [monastic protocol, not so much cultural], what to wear, where to go. I wasn't allowed to walk to the bathroom by myself! This was because there were workmen in the house, and even though I wasn't a nun, they were still trying to protect me by the "nun code" and also didn't want me to get lost. Well, that was mostly in the first week. My Sister-helper was also always telling me to dress more warmly! (It was cold as anything in there!) Part of all that was cultural because some of the things I needed to have explained were peculiarly Italian, but I think much of it would have happened in an American monastery as well. Then again, maybe not.

It's funny how deciding to enter a foreign monastery can make that one five states away sound a lot more appealing to your parents... those in desperation who want to enter American convents should get some foreign monastic flyers and strew them about the house.
[/list]

I'm still in the process of becoming fluent in Italian, and I remind myself that the more I study [i]here[/i], the easier it will be for me to use the time saved in Italy for the spiritual life... but humility is good for you, too!

I know another young woman who entered a different, semi-cloistered monastery in Italy, but there, half of the nuns--all the younger ones--are Americans, a rather different situation. Another good friend was considering a faraway vocation, but I haven't talked to her for a while.

[cmaD2006]

Well I can say from experience that you may not even realize what the issues will be until you really get there. After my experience in Argentina I realized that one factor (of many) that just made things that much difficult was cultural.

I'm not sure where the InHisLove726 is from but I know that just the fact that I was from the states, brought up here (although with a latin american background) did play a factor -- there were so many times where I think what I may have said was misunderstood. And vice versa.

And many times I realized it after the fact.

All I can suggest is to pray -- God won't lead you where He doesn't want you. They'll be something to learn everywhere you end up. Take the cultural (and the other) factor into consideration but go with what the Lord tells you in prayer; and listen to others such as your spiritual director, priests and nuns who may be helping in your discernment.

They sometimes get an insight into who you are that you may not -- so if many people around you who are trying to help you discern say "think about it twice" there may be a really good reason.

Blessings,

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='InHisLove726' date='10 September 2009 - 09:31 PM' timestamp='1252607481' post='1964509']
*emphasis mine*

When you mentioned this, I remembered that Annie (nunsense) was dismissed because of this very reason. Cultural difference isn't just for language barriers. Different countries have different ways of doing things. I know the English language in England is different than English in America, so I probably would have difficulty understanding the words and vice versa. By all means, go where you are called, but it's important to remember that if you decide to go to another country, there will be cultural barriers. I would pray that it would be possible to get past them, but it might not be the case.
[/quote]

Yes, I was thinking of nunsense as well when I wrote it... I don't think the language will be much of a problem when moving from the US to the UK - a few of the expressions are different and you might run into some exotic accent, but as long as they're not subjected to Cockney rhyming slang I think 'mericans do well, in general

I just thought it was very important to note that indeed, cultural problems can exist outside of language problems. Language problems are of course difficult, but they're also more obvious.

What I ran into, to be a bit more specific in my example, is that Dutch people, even those who are considered rather reserved (like me), express their thoughts a [i]lot[/i] more bluntly than the great majority of English people. It's not that English people lie about their feelings, just that they are more... understated.

So if an English person tells another English person "Jolly good old chap, I do think I will take an aspirin for my toe", the other will rightly think OH NOES IT WILL NEED TO BE AMPUTATED! and rush him to hospital. When a [i]Dutch[/i] person says "Have you a little tablet for me?" (our language is ridiculously formal), it means nothing less and especially nothing more than just that. Imagine when a Dutch person says there's something actually serious going on. So the English person will react like there's something horrible happening, the Dutch person gets completely confused because they have no idea what they did to cause all this fuss... etcetera.


[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='11 September 2009 - 08:59 AM' timestamp='1252648783' post='1964812']
[list]
It's funny how deciding to enter a foreign monastery can make that one five states away sound a lot more appealing to your parents... those in desperation who want to enter American convents should get some foreign monastic flyers and strew them about the house.
[/list]
[/quote]



Maybe I should tell my mum I'll become a Carthusian nun - that's only about 40 miles from her home Do you think she'll prefer that to the three visits a year in another country?

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='11 September 2009 - 09:07 AM' timestamp='1252649232' post='1964813']
Well I can say from experience that you may not even realize what the issues will be until you really get there. After my experience in Argentina I realized that one factor (of many) that just made things that much difficult was cultural.
[/quote]



Expect the unexpected. (And it might start before entrance.)

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='11 September 2009 - 09:07 AM' timestamp='1252649232' post='1964813']
I'm not sure where the InHisLove726 is from but I know that just the fact that I was from the states, brought up here (although with a latin american background) did play a factor -- there were so many times where I think what I may have said was misunderstood. And vice versa.

And many times I realized it after the fact.

All I can suggest is to pray -- God won't lead you where He doesn't want you. They'll be something to learn everywhere you end up. Take the cultural (and the other) factor into consideration but go with what the Lord tells you in prayer; and listen to others such as your spiritual director, priests and nuns who may be helping in your discernment.

They sometimes get an insight into who you are that you may not -- so if many people around you who are trying to help you discern say "think about it twice" there may be a really good reason.
[/quote]

Excellent advice all around.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='InHisLove726' date='10 September 2009 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1252607481' post='1964509']
*emphasis mine*

When you mentioned this, I remembered that Annie (nunsense) was dismissed because of this very reason. Cultural difference isn't just for language barriers. Different countries have different ways of doing things. I know the English language in England is different than English in America, so I probably would have difficulty understanding the words and vice versa. By all means, go where you are called, but it's important to remember that if you decide to go to another country, there will be cultural barriers. I would pray that it would be possible to get past them, but it might not be the case.
[/quote]
There are definite cultural differences between the US & UK (saying this as an American living in England). I've personally never found them to be difficult to get used to, but I'm also quite the Anglophile, and I've lived here for 3.5 years, so I just don't think about it now. I actually notice the cultural differences more when I return to the US than living in the UK, so I'm sure I probably did notice it more when I first moved here. As for a language issue, Scouse is difficult to understand at first. Now it sounds fairly normal.

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='11 September 2009 - 06:59 AM' timestamp='1252648783' post='1964812']
It's funny how deciding to enter a foreign monastery can make that one five states away sound a lot more appealing to your parents... those in desperation who want to enter American convents should get some foreign monastic flyers and strew them about the house.
[/quote]
When I went to uni, my parents weren't sure about the university I wanted to attend because it was private, and therefore very expensive. To oblige them I told them I'd also apply to a school in state - which was much further away and cost more.

[AccountDeleted]

This is an interesting topic, but I don't have much luck posting on this poor connection, so we will see if I can get anything down before I'm offline again!

The cultural differences aren't the only factor in a vocation, so I certainly wouldn't let it stop me from joining a community (I have been in two English ones and one that was in Canada but was mostly Chinese sisters from Macau, with an English prioress). If a person feels a "call" to a community, then it only seems sensible to follow it up. God has His own reasons for everything.

The thing to remember is that it isn't always just the candidate who has to adapt to the differences. You might find that you can handle everything the culture throws at you but the community, or perhaps the Prioresses might feel uncomfortable with the way that you express yourself (even in the same language) and misunderstandings may develop. I still have no real idea why I was asked to leave, and I agree with the priest who told Mother that it was all a cultural misunderstanding. But that being said, God let it happen!


We might also be dealing with some generation issues as well, since in all three Carmels, the Prioresses had been there for around 50-60 years, and most of them had been Prioress for much of that time (although Holy Mother St Teresa only wanted a Prioress to have two terms of office (of three years per term). The way that women communicate and relate today is much different than it was pre-war and pre-Vaticn council. In the cloistered Carmels where they have fought to maintain their traditional ways, and where verbal communication is very limited, they might also have developed a little rigidity in dealing with woman whom they consider to be "different".

Anyway, there are many factors involved in a vocation, and God has His own plans for our lives. I always laugh at the oft repeated joke that if you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans. I have experienced this so much in my own life. I truly wish that He would sit down with me and show me a map and guidebook and explain everything in detail and take away all my fears and doubts etc, but He seems to prefer asking me to TRUST Him in all things, in all ways, and for all time. What is He thinking? You gotta love Him, that's all I can say.

[mariaassunta]

I don't post often here, but observe alot. I can comment on this because I myself left my home country at a very young age to explore the Religious life. There are many cultural differences, even in America when you speak english! Don't say there isn't until you have been there a few years and have been in the ups and downs of it all. But through all of these differences there is one main factor. If God calls us no matter which part of the earth or destination HE will provide the graces for the time and place. We will not be tested beyond what we can handle. Yet we have to be willing to say YES like the Blessed Mother in her FIAT!! There is no point in comparing one place to another because no matter where you go even in your own country Religious life in itself is a different life and culture altogether, being in a different country other than your homeland just really adds to your vocation and the Sacrifice involved with it. I cannot say it is easy.....it's far from it, but all I can say It is fulfilling, rewarding and such a blessing to be able to look back on a day in God's service wherever I am in the present moment and see the hands and blessings of God's Work. Hope this helped alittle just my insight. Let's all be one in Jesus Christ!