Transubstantiation Unsubstantiated

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='05 September 2009 - 10:49 PM' timestamp='1252208971' post='1961639']
Please! He's *German*. (and Italian) [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]
You're so sloppy with your Catholic facts, Res. Need to work on that.



[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_above.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_pound.gif[/img]
[/quote]

WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MR. NIL OB? I said absolutely nothing about the nationality of the Pope, but merely said he was sitting on a throne in Italy. You are not even reading what I wrote, but your sinister eyes are merely looking for anything that you might try to criticize me for, and you've done a wonderful job of making a fool of yourself.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 September 2009 - 01:42 AM' timestamp='1252215750' post='1961721']
WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MR. NIL OB? I said absolutely nothing about the nationality of the Pope, but merely said he was sitting on a throne in Italy. You are not even reading what I wrote, but your sinister eyes are merely looking for anything that you might try to criticize me for, and you've done a wonderful job of making a fool of yourself.
[/quote]


Stormstopper, this post was a humorous response to a previous post by Resurrexi. He did not gear it toward you.

You are becoming a little paranoid. We tend to be lighthearted here.

[Apotheoun]

Protestant scholar Adolph von Harnack's comments on the ancient understanding of the word symbol as applied to the Eucharist are helpful: "The symbol is the mystery and the mystery was not conceivable without a symbol,” for, “What we now-a-days understand by symbol is a thing which is not that which it represents; at that time [i.e., in the ancient Church] symbol denoted a thing which, in some kind of way, really is what it signifies." [Adolph von Harnack, [u]History of Dogma[/u], New York: Dover Publications, 1961, volume 2, page 144]

Edited September 6, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='06 September 2009 - 02:13 AM' timestamp='1252217588' post='1961732']
Protestant scholar Adolph von Harnack's comments on the ancient understanding of the word symbol as applied to the Eucharist are helpful: "The symbol is the mystery and the mystery was not conceivable without a symbol,” for, “What we now-a-days understand by symbol is a thing which is not that which it represents; at that time [i.e., in the ancient Church] symbol denoted a thing which, in some kind of way, really is what it signifies." [Adolph von Harnack, [u]History of Dogma[/u], New York: Dover Publications, 1961, volume 2, page 144]
[/quote]
Very helpful.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 September 2009 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1252215750' post='1961721']
WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MR. NIL OB? I said absolutely nothing about the nationality of the Pope, but merely said he was sitting on a throne in Italy. You are not even reading what I wrote, but your sinister eyes are merely looking for anything that you might try to criticize me for, and you've done a wonderful job of making a fool of yourself.
[/quote]
Here's your one chance to admit that you made a mistake with that one.

If I wanted to criticize you ad hominem I'd talk about your rabid anti-Catholicism and patronizing tone. If I wanted to criticize your arguments (which I've done briefly) then there are about a thousand ways I could do so, which is already being done by members far more learned than me.

My sinister eyes and I find this post hilarious.

[Selah]

Storm, perhaps you should have taken into account that the catholics here actually know what they are talking about

[StColette]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='05 September 2009 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1252207171' post='1961606']

I'll give you that one. That reflects less, however, on the fullness of Truth that the Church maintains and more on the sorry excuse for religious education that has been taking place in this country for the last 40 or so years.
[/quote]

I would read the transcript of that video or watch it before you're willing to give him that one. The question asked is pretty loaded.. "INTERVIEWER How is it that you hope to get into heaven?" For a Catholic it is more than just believing in Christ. Being a Christian they already believe in Christ, that's a given. But for Catholics and many other Protestants there is also the need to lead a life of holiness. That means following the Ten Commandments, praying, etc. Christ taught us specifically in the Gospel that there are two great Commandments, to love God before all others and to love your neighbor as yourself. If you are able to follow these two, then you are able to follow all Ten, because all Ten find themselves bound up in just these two. Many of the replies from those that were interviewed were by believing in God (kinda hard to believe in God and not believe in Jesus, if you're a Christian), follow the Commandments, participate in the Sacraments (not just Catholics believe in the necessity of the Sacraments for Salvation), by prayer, and by leading a holy life. These things aren't wrong answers, but they are used in order to say "see...Catholics don't think it's through Christ that you are saved". Of course we believe it's through Christ but Catholics (as well as many other non-Catholics) do not hold to the idea of Once Saved Always Saved, which is why many of those interviewed answered with things like "leading a good life" and "following the Ten Commandments". Now one could say that if you truly believed and followed Christ then all those other things (following the Commandments, prayer, etc.) are a given, because to believe and follow Christ is to live a life of holiness. Most Christians can easily believe in Christ, but living out a life that is Christ filled is often difficult.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Selah' date='06 September 2009 - 07:09 AM' timestamp='1252235377' post='1961748']
Storm, perhaps you should have taken into account that the catholics here actually know what they are talking about
[/quote]
I warned him before I invited him. Just for the record. I think that he's so convinced no Catholics know their faith that he didn't take me seriously.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='StColette' date='06 September 2009 - 10:10 AM' timestamp='1252246255' post='1961761']
I would read the transcript of that video or watch it before you're willing to give him that one. The question asked is pretty loaded.. "INTERVIEWER How is it that you hope to get into heaven?" For a Catholic it is more than just believing in Christ. Being a Christian they already believe in Christ, that's a given. But for Catholics and many other Protestants there is also the need to lead a life of holiness. That means following the Ten Commandments, praying, etc. Christ taught us specifically in the Gospel that there are two great Commandments, to love God before all others and to love your neighbor as yourself. If you are able to follow these two, then you are able to follow all Ten, because all Ten find themselves bound up in just these two. Many of the replies from those that were interviewed were by believing in God (kinda hard to believe in God and not believe in Jesus, if you're a Christian), follow the Commandments, participate in the Sacraments (not just Catholics believe in the necessity of the Sacraments for Salvation), by prayer, and by leading a holy life. These things aren't wrong answers, but they are used in order to say "see...Catholics don't think it's through Christ that you are saved". Of course we believe it's through Christ but Catholics (as well as many other non-Catholics) do not hold to the idea of Once Saved Always Saved, which is why many of those interviewed answered with things like "leading a good life" and "following the Ten Commandments". Now one could say that if you truly believed and followed Christ then all those other things (following the Commandments, prayer, etc.) are a given, because to believe and follow Christ is to live a life of holiness. Most Christians can easily believe in Christ, but living out a life that is Christ filled is often difficult.
[/quote]

Hopping onto the whole "how are we saved" topic...Storm, if you want to discuss it, feel free to make another thread. Salvation theology was the topic of my thesis.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Raphael' date='06 September 2009 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1252249618' post='1961775']
I warned him before I invited him. Just for the record. I think that he's so convinced no Catholics know their faith that he didn't take me seriously.
[/quote]

Yeah, dUSt warned me too before I came here and I laughed it off. Now look at me.

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='CorMaria' date='05 September 2009 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1252212976' post='1961685']
Certain thick people seem to look past 1600 years of almost unanimous testimony to this Christian belief.
[/quote]

That's fine that you called me thick-headed, but the hypocrisy of your fellow Catholics is seen by the fact that they will give YOU the liberty of using such "strong language" and not condem you for it, but the instant I use any strong terminology to voice my discontent, I am immediately ostrasized with some negative adjective, usually with the typical, "how unkind and unchristian of you". Sheesh!

Storm.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
Stormstopper:
[quote name='Lil Red' date='05 September 2009 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1252212956' post='1961684']
+J.M.J.+
you seem to be having problems with the quote system

if you'd like to respond to multiple posts, just hit the "multi-quote" button on each post, then click "add reply". if you click the "reply" button directly on a post, it will take you to a new screen where it will have already quoted the post you wished to reply to.

hope this helps. as it is, i'm merging your posts so as to not create any undue confusion. God bless.
[/quote]

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='05 September 2009 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1252211055' post='1961662']
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

Evidently our Protestant interlocutor has a problem with the Catholic (and Orthodox) doctrine that the divine liturgy is the living memorial of Christ's one all holy oblation.

Now, by what unassailable theological authority does he reject this doctrinal truth? By none other than the great and powerful Webster's online dictionary.

All hail the sixth [i]sola[/i] . . . [i]Sola Dictionarius[/i].
[/quote]

[font="Comic Sans MS"]Memorials helped people to remember important events. When God placed the rainbow in the sky, it was a reminder that He would never again inundate the earth with a flood {Gen 9:13-17}. When He instituted the Sabbath rest, it was a reminder that He had created all things in six days and rested on the seventh {Ex 20:8-10}. When He instituted the Passover, it was a reminder of their deliverence from Egyptian slavery, and "This day shall be unto you for a "memorial" {Exodus 12:14}. The tribes of Israel were to be remembered by "stones of memorial" {Exodus 28:9,12}. When Joshua had twelve men take one stone each from the Jordan River, it was to be a reminder to tell their children how God had stopped the flow of the river so they could cross over {Josh 4:1-9}. When a certain woman poured expensive oil on His head, Jesus said this act of hers would henceforth be in Scripture as a [i]memorial[/i] for her kindness {Matt 26:12-13}. The prayers and alms given by Cornelius were said to stand as a memorial before God {Acts 10:2-4}. In our day for example, there are over 150 memorials in Washington alone. The most popular being the Black Wall----which is a stretch of 58,000 names of those who perished in Vietnam. Their service and sacrifice is forever emblazoned on the nation's conscience all because of a simple black wall. Ditto for remembering Jesus in His service and sacrifice in the simple breaking of the bread. [/font][font="Comic Sans MS"]Yet the Catholic Church insists that at Communion, [i]"the central [u]event[/u] of salvation becomes really present" [/i]{Ecclesia de Eucharista, #11}.[/font][font="Comic Sans MS"] We emphatically deny this. In Christian Communion, [u]the meaning of the event[/u] is made present once more, not the event itself---as every instance above attributes to. Need it be said that no past event can be comparmentalized in the form of a Ritz Cracker! Participating in Communion is "proclaiming the Lord's death till He come" {1 Cor 11:26}. The [i]proclamation [/i] of the sacrifice which transcends all time is perpetuated; the sacrifice is [i]not[/i]. What madness it is then that the Catholic Church explicity [u]denies[/u] the Last Supper to be a "mere memorial" {Trent, Session 22, can. 3} where past events are laid to rest precisely as Scripture and common sense verify. The Catholic Church sticks a rose in her mouth and expects us to believe that, "Christian liturgy not only recalls the events that saved us, but actualizes them; makes them present " {CCC #1104, 1366, 1368, 1409} . Or as JPII says, [i]"the redeeming sacrifice is not only through faith-filled remembrance, but also through a real contact, since this sacrifice is made present. . .and cannot be understood as something separate, independent of the Cross or only indirectly referring to the sacrifice of Calvary. . .it is a sacrifice in the strict sense. . ." [/i]and, [/font][font="Comic Sans MS"]the saving work of Christ does not[i] "remain confined to the past since all that Christ did, participates in the divine eternity and so transcends all times" [/i]{Ecclesia de Eucharistia, #11,12 & 13}. We submit the Pope's confession that swallowing the Eucharist is somehow "participating in the divine eternity" ---falls directly into the category of "great swelling words of vanity" per 2 Peter 2:18. The same can be said for, [i]"The Eucharist is truly a glimpse of heaven appearing on earth. It is a glorious ray of the heavenly Jerusalem which pierces the clouds of our history and lights up our journey" [/i]{Ecclesia de Eucharistia, #19).[/font]

[font="Comic Sans MS"] The fatal flaw of the Catholic Church lies in her driving beyond the established biblical guard rails of "mere memorial" ---and plunging over the cliff into a "divine eternity" of thinking that since they are "making present" the sacrifice of the cross in Communion, then whala! ---the Eucharist itself must also be a sacrifice that need now be [u]offered[/u] over and over again and forever {CCC #1365} . But we repeat, the Bible says "there is no [u]longer[/u] any offering for sin". [/font][font="Comic Sans MS"][color="#ff0000"]Notice--- [/color][/font][color="#0000ff"][font="Comic Sans MS"]if there was some exception to this rule, such as the continual offering of the "divine victim" {Ecclessia, #13} in the so-called "sacrifice of the mass", the author of Hebrews would have told us in 10:18. But he did not.[/font]

[font="Comic Sans MS"]These "wolves in sheep's clothing" have turned Communion into something it was [u]never[/u] intended to be; namely, a time-travelling, angel-carrying, unbloody sacrificing, transubstantiating monstrocity![/font][/color]

[u] [/u]

[StColette]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 September 2009 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1252253036' post='1961798']
That's fine that you called me thick-headed, but the hypocrisy of your fellow Catholics is seen by the fact that they will give YOU the liberty of using such "strong language" and not condem you for it, but the instant I use any strong terminology to voice my discontent, I am immediately ostrasized with some negative adjective, usually with the typical, "how unkind and unchristian of you". Sheesh!

Storm.
[/quote]

Just because someone did not call out this person on using that phrase doesn't mean it hasn't been reported to the mods. Some members will report it strictly to the mods to edit or handle as they see fit rather than detract from the topic of the thread. It might be wise to also keep in mind that not everyone reads every post in a thread. If you see something that is a personal attack against yourself or someone else be sure to hit the report on that person's post. The report button is at the left hand bottom corner of a post.


As Lil_Red keeps trying to point out, if you're trying to quote a specific post and reply to it. Hit the Reply button that is at the bottom right hand corner of that person's post. That will open up a reply screen with the persons comments quoted in it.

Pax,
Jennie

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='StColette' date='06 September 2009 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1252253792' post='1961801']
Just because someone did not call out this person on using that phrase doesn't mean it hasn't been reported to the mods. Some members will report it strictly to the mods to edit or handle as they see fit rather than detract from the topic of the thread. It might be wise to also keep in mind that not everyone reads every post in a thread. If you see something that is a personal attack against yourself or someone else be sure to hit the report on that person's post. The report button is at the left hand bottom corner of a post.


As Lil_Red keeps trying to point out, if you're trying to quote a specific post and reply to it. Hit the Reply button that is at the bottom right hand corner of that person's post. That will open up a reply screen with the persons comments quoted in it.

Pax,
Jennie
[/quote]

Jennie,

I don't quite understand what problem you think I am having. I am indeed pressing the reply box after the post I wish to respond to, which then takes me to the next screen where the box is there for me to write in, and then press "add reply". This is what I've been doing all along-- including this message to you. I will now press "post".