Transubstantiation Unsubstantiated

[peach_cube]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 September 2009 - 11:15 AM' timestamp='1252160103' post='1961283']
Hey folks,

Thanks to the few who welcomed me. But seriously now, I went through the string of replies and all you have done is blow a lot of smoke and dust into the air with your trite little comments. What am I supposed to say to the one who said, "don't speak to us in capital letters"? For crying out loud, 98% of the essay was no such thing, but the very verse I BEGGED you all to look at (Hebrews 9:16-20) I go ahead and capitalize so you can grasp the seriousness of your error---and I get condemned. My, my. Also, I will also not apologize for the length. Of course it is long and I am not surprised many will not go through it. That isn't my concern--just as when we plant seeds in the ground, not all of them "take". The opening up of a person's eyes is God's business, not mine. I am concerned with utilizing my talents and abilities, and since I have studied Catholicism for over 25 years and realize the evidence is quite formidable against you, we decided to put it all into one piece and send it out. We feel we are rightly dividing the word of God in stark contrast to your belief system, and that is EXACTLY what God expects us to do, and that izzzzzzz "evangelizing", contrary to the one who said it wasn't. IMHO, most of you are hiding behind the excuse of it being too long so you won't have to lift a finger to support your views. In reality, I think you probably weren't aware of the mountain of logical and biblical arguments to validate Jesus was speaking figuratively-- and so, behind a closed bathroom door you've probably had to grab a sedative with the realization that the word of God is indeed more powerful than any two-edged sword and you just don't know what to do when you see it is chopping down the hocus-pocus-domininocus of "The Real Presence" [i]at its roots.
[/i]
By the way, I was somewhat amused by Meg P's comment that she believes Transubstantiation is true because "Jesus said what He meant" and that, as they say, is that. Let me see now, I am supposed to [i] [u]respect[/u][/i] that sort of reply? If I sent you guys a tract that was one line saying the Pope is out of his collective mind, you know very well you would all just blow it off, condeming us because we are so lazy not to explain ourselves. Then when we send you a "tract" that is [i]loooong[/i], we still get a tomato thrown in our face because you think we are trying to hit you over the head with so much info that you won't have time to answer. Sheesh!

Incidentally Meg, I'm so glad you believe what Jesus says. Now tell me: God has announced in Scripture in more than 5 places, the direct, emphatic, and unambiguous statement that "ALL HAVE SINNED". Even a child could understand that......because GOD HAS SAID WHAT HE MEANT. Now why don't you believe it[i]???????[/i] You and your church simply spit in His face and tell us that Mary is an EXCEPTION! What part of "all" was confusing for you my dear? Which is exactly what you will hear from the the Lord (as well as Mary) on Judgment Day.

Storm
[/quote]


You must be new to this whole internet thing. Evangelizing does not mean throwing a whole bunch of [i]croutons[/i] against the wall and then blaming the person who it is thrown at if they don't understand what you are trying say. You need to be patient and teach us. If not you are a just a spammer. Like all spammers you are trying to scam something out of people. In this case you are scamming "truth." Truth that is so important that you lack any patience whatsoever to explain or teach it. Let's just say you are teaching students Algebra. If you just give them the book and tell them to read it they most likely won't learn algebra. On top of that, you don't then tell them they must be stupid or delusional if they don't understand algebra after reading the book. You have to teach them it.

If you really believe what you are saying, then you will take time to explain it and teach it. If you continue to respond with insults then you will just get yourself banned. I am asking you to do the former. Are you capable of it?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 September 2009 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1252160103' post='1961283']
Incidentally Meg, I'm so glad you believe what Jesus says. Now tell me: God has announced in Scripture in more than 5 places, the direct, emphatic, and unambiguous statement that "ALL HAVE SINNED". Even a child could understand that......because GOD HAS SAID WHAT HE MEANT. Now why don't you believe it[i]???????[/i] You and your church simply spit in His face and tell us that Mary is an EXCEPTION! What part of "all" was confusing for you my dear? Which is exactly what you will hear from the the Lord (as well as Mary) on Judgment Day.
[/quote]
Fair enough.
So you believe Jesus to have sinned as well, I presume. After all, He [i]was[/i] fully God and fully Man.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 September 2009 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1252160103' post='1961283']


Incidentally Meg, I'm so glad you believe what Jesus says. Now tell me: God has announced in Scripture in more than 5 places, the direct, emphatic, and unambiguous statement that "ALL HAVE SINNED". Even a child could understand that......because GOD HAS SAID WHAT HE MEANT. Now why don't you believe it[i]???????[/i] You and your church simply spit in His face and tell us that Mary is an EXCEPTION! What part of "all" was confusing for you my dear? Which is exactly what you will hear from the the Lord (as well as Mary) on Judgment Day.

Storm
[/quote]

I just saw that USAirwaysIHS replied to this and I couldn't bite my tongue.

This thread happens to be about you spamming people who believe in Christ's presence in the Eucharist, but you completely veer off into something else about Mary. What, exactly, does that have to do with the Eucharist at all? Are you attacking the Eucharist or Mary, or are you just attacking the Church in general? I'm hesitant to actually participate, but for the sake of those who are, it would help if you chose a topic and stuck to it.

[homeschoolmom]

Yes, I was going to say the same thing. Please stick to one topic at a time if you want people to reply, rather than flying all over the place.

And... you sound so angry and patronizing when you call people "dear" and use tons of question marks. Just saying.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='05 September 2009 - 12:19 AM' timestamp='1252135164' post='1961241']
I have reached my quota for negative marks today.
[/quote]

poo! i was going to give you plus one for that, I started crying almost from laughing so hard... but alas... I have reached my quota for positive marks today.

HEY! I wonder if this "short" tract could be used to teach apologetics to some of my high school youth that want to dig deeper. Once a week meet and cover the error's in the tract and explain them!

Raphael, you used to do HS ministry, think any kids would be interested? If Rexi was in my youth I know he might be .

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 September 2009 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1252160103' post='1961283']
Hey folks,

Thanks to the few who welcomed me. But seriously now, I went through the string of replies and all you have done is blow a lot of smoke and dust into the air with your trite little comments. What am I supposed to say to the one who said, "don't speak to us in capital letters"?
For crying out loud, 98% of the essay was no such thing, but the very verse I BEGGED you all to look at (Hebrews 9:16-20) I go ahead and capitalize so you can grasp the seriousness of your error---and I get condemned. My, my. Also, I will also not apologize for the length. Of course it is long and I am not surprised many will not go through it. That isn't my concern--just as when we plant seeds in the ground, not all of them "take". The opening up of a person's eyes is God's business, not mine. I am concerned with utilizing my talents and abilities, and since I have studied Catholicism for over 25 years and realize the evidence is quite formidable against you, we decided to put it all into one piece and send it out. We feel we are rightly dividing the word of God in stark contrast to your belief system, and that is EXACTLY what God expects us to do, and that izzzzzzz "evangelizing", contrary to the one who said it wasn't.[/quote]

I await your next syllable with great eagress.

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 September 2009 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1252160103' post='1961283']IMHO, most of you are hiding behind the excuse of it being too long so you won't have to lift a finger to support your views.
In reality, I think you probably weren't aware of the mountain of logical and biblical arguments to validate Jesus was speaking figuratively-- and so, behind a closed bathroom door you've probably had to grab a sedative with the realization that the word of God is indeed more powerful than any two-edged sword and you just don't know what to do when you see it is chopping down the hocus-pocus-domininocus of "The Real Presence" [i]at its roots.
[/i][/quote]

Well, IMHO, brevity is the soul of wit. What is contained in a "mountain of logical and biblical arguments" as you would call it (which looks to be pretty much the same thing said about 100 different ways) can be reduced to a mole-hill, something that someone can ingest and digest thoroughly. The length of your argument does nothing to enhance its substance, nor does intelligence show through a volume of text. IMHO, you're hiding behind this "mountain of logical and biblical arguments" so as to not have to lift a finger to explain [i]your[/i] views, seeing as many of the verses cited aren't even given in the context of the biblical passages in which they're found, a big no-no.

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 September 2009 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1252160103' post='1961283']By the way, I was somewhat amused by Meg P's comment that she believes Transubstantiation is true because "Jesus said what He meant" and that, as they say, is that. Let me see now, I am supposed to [i] [u]respect[/u][/i] that sort of reply? If I sent you guys a tract that was one line saying the Pope is out of his collective mind, you know very well you would all just blow it off, condeming us because we are so lazy not to explain ourselves. Then when we send you a "tract" that is [i]loooong[/i], we still get a tomato thrown in our face because you think we are trying to hit you over the head with so much info that you won't have time to answer. Sheesh![/quote]

It's a very intelligent response to a very unintelligent suggestion used by many. Looking at the entire bread of life discourse in John 6 leaves no doubt that he was speaking literally and not metaphorically. Also, if you were to send us a tract stating that the pope is "out of his collective mind", we would indeed blow it off because it would not be any intelligent argument against the papacy in the first place, just an [i]ad hominem[/i] attack against a particular pope. It wouldn't even [i]be[/i] an argument, yet alone a legitimate one.

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 September 2009 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1252160103' post='1961283']Incidentally Meg, I'm so glad you believe what Jesus says. Now tell me: God has announced in Scripture in more than 5 places, the direct, emphatic, and unambiguous statement that "ALL HAVE SINNED". Even a child could understand that......because GOD HAS SAID WHAT HE MEANT. Now why don't you believe it[i]???????[/i] You and your church simply spit in His face and tell us that Mary is an EXCEPTION! What part of "all" was confusing for you my dear? Which is exactly what you will hear from the the Lord (as well as Mary) on Judgment Day.

Storm[/quote]

I think I already made myself clear. We're discussing the Eucharist. If you want to discuss Mary or the Church in general, you're more than welcome to open another thread.

God bless and welcome to Phatmass.

Edited September 5, 2009 by iheartjp2

[Slappo]

Stormtopper, what does Jesus mean then when he says:
"Unless you eat the [b]flesh[/b] of the Son of Man and drink his [b]blood[/b] you have no life within you"

By the way, if you want to argue what he means by flesh, the Greek word used is σάρξ or sarx which means "flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts"

That doesn't seem like a symbol of his flesh there.

Read John 6:48-66

He goes on this long sermon about how he is the bread of life and unless we eat his flesh and blood we do not have life, those that eat his flesh and blood live in him and have eternal life and will be raised up on the last day.
Then it hits verse 60 "This is a hard saying, who can listen to it?" Continuing to verse 66 "After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him."

Now the hard teaching that people left because of was eating the flesh and blood of Christ. Jesus, knowing that this was hard for them didn't run over and say, "stop wait wait that's not really what I meant, I mean you have to symbolically eat flesh and blood not actually eat it, it's just a symbol not real flesh and blood, you're misunderstanding me." No. Jesus let them go and turned to the apostles and said, "Will you also leave?" To which Peter says, "To whom else could we go?"



And that's all I've got for now because that's all I really need.

As for Hebrews... The way you're reading it would mean that no one who died before Christ died, Example: Abraham, Elijah, Moses, the Prophets, could have received salvation because the death of the one with the will had not yet occurred, and if you read a little bit before the passage you quoted, the will we are referring to is:

"[12] [b]he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an [u][i]eternal redemption.[/b][/i][/u][13] For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, [14] how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Eternal redemption. But because that was the will of Christ and Christ had not died yet, even Elijah who was raised up in a chariot of fire did not go to heaven since Christ had not yet won eternal redemption and therefore Elijah could not have been redeemed.

As Catholics we believe Christ to be an eternal being and therefore he can work outside of the realm of time, time which is not eternal, but rather temporal. Therefore, the graces of the CRUCIFIXION (after Christ had died) are brought from the cross into the past and given to the prophets, Elijah, Abraham, and even Mary.

All grace comes from the cross. Even the graces received in the Old Testament. It is the source of all grace.

[Apotheoun]

I must admit to a certain degree of confusion after reading Stormstopper's essay and his posts within this thread, which if anything need to be more tightly edited. Perhaps if he would simply define the term "transubstantiation," which does not require that he actually believe in the doctrine conveyed by the word, but which would make it clear that he does in fact understand the term in a Catholic sense, then the discussion could proceed from that one point to the others brought up in his original extended essay.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Apotheoun

[StColette]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='05 September 2009 - 03:03 PM' timestamp='1252177431' post='1961350']
I must admit to a certain degree of confusion after reading Stormstopper's essay and his posts within this thread, which if anything need to be more tightly edited. Perhaps if he would simply define the term "transubstantiation," which does not require that he actually believe in the doctrine conveyed by the word, but which would make it clear that he does in fact understand the term in a Catholic sense, then the discussion could proceed from that one point to the others brought up in his original extended essay.
[/quote]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='peach_cube' date='05 September 2009 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1252163100' post='1961293']
You must be new to this whole internet thing. Evangelizing does not mean throwing a whole bunch of [i]croutons[/i] against the wall and then blaming the person who it is thrown at if they don't understand what you are trying say. You need to be patient and teach us. If not you are a just a spammer. Like all spammers you are trying to scam something out of people. In this case you are scamming "truth." Truth that is so important that you lack any patience whatsoever to explain or teach it. Let's just say you are teaching students Algebra. If you just give them the book and tell them to read it they most likely won't learn algebra. On top of that, you don't then tell them they must be stupid or delusional if they don't understand algebra after reading the book. You have to teach them it.

If you really believe what you are saying, then you will take time to explain it and teach it. If you continue to respond with insults then you will just get yourself banned. I am asking you to do the former. Are you capable of it?
[/quote]

Perfect.

[picchick]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 September 2009 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1252160103' post='1961283']
Incidentally Meg, I'm so glad you believe what Jesus says. Now tell me: God has announced in Scripture in more than 5 places, the direct, emphatic, and unambiguous statement that "ALL HAVE SINNED". Even a child could understand that......because GOD HAS SAID WHAT HE MEANT. Now why don't you believe it[i]???????[/i] You and your church simply spit in His face and tell us that Mary is an EXCEPTION! What part of "all" was confusing for you my dear? Which is exactly what you will hear from the the Lord (as well as Mary) on Judgment Day.

Storm
[/quote]

Storm, welcome.


I do not know you so please don't call me, "my dear." Nothing about "all" was confusing to me. Unless you know the belief and doctrine surrounding Mary, you really cannot comment.

I am not going to debate you. I know the truth. Nothing you say and nothing you quote is going to change that. You can quote scripture until you are blue in the face, I will still believe that Jesus is present Body, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist.

God Bless,
Meg

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='picchick' date='05 September 2009 - 04:55 PM' timestamp='1252184125' post='1961384']
Storm, welcome.


I do not know you so please don't call me, "my dear." Nothing about "all" was confusing to me. Unless you know the belief and doctrine surrounding Mary, you really cannot comment.

I am not going to debate you. I know the truth. Nothing you say and nothing you quote is going to change that. You can quote scripture until you are blue in the face, I will still believe that Jesus is present Body, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist.

God Bless,
Meg
[/quote]

I agree, because the Scriptures back up the Eucharist. However, since Storm has chosen to move on to another topic, perhaps we should assume he gave up on this one. Of course, another topic should go in a separate thread. I'm sure our PMers will be happy to point out to him that the Greek word for "all" (panta) means not only "all" but also "many" and that even if I say "all" in the English language, that "all" could mean "in general" (in the sense that human nature [i]in general[/i] is marred with sin) not "each and every."

That, of course, would just be if he decided to start a new thread.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Raphael' date='05 September 2009 - 02:10 PM' timestamp='1252185058' post='1961391']
I agree, because the Scriptures back up the Eucharist. However, since Storm has chosen to move on to another topic, perhaps we should assume he gave up on this one. Of course, another topic should go in a separate thread. I'm sure our PMers will be happy to point out to him that the Greek word for "all" (panta) means not only "all" but also "many" and that even if I say "all" in the English language, that "all" could mean "in general" not "each and every."

That, of course, would just be if he decided to start a new thread.
[/quote]

[Marie-Therese]

Stormstopper,

May the peace of Christ be with you, and welcome to Phatmass.

I would like to begin by stating that I am a Catholic convert, being raised in the Southern Baptist faith. I am well versed and well educated in Protestant theology and in the arguments which you make. While I am not going to (as yet) refute your post point by point (simply because I do not have the adequate time right now to do so), I would like to initially address a very few points you have made in your last post here, simply because they leapt out at me and I felt compelled to respond. If, as you say, you have spent 25 years studying Catholicism and compiling this argument, surely you would permit a few of us more than a cursory "hello" to compile a response to you.

I begin with a request. In the name of Christian charity, and since we are brothers and sisters in Christ (regardless of differences in dogmatic issues), I would ask that you keep your tone in mind. In order to have a productive dialogue, it is important to refrain from condescension. I am an adult with a well-formed faith and I don't need to be insulted. Thank you.


[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 September 2009 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1252160103' post='1961283']
Thanks to the few who welcomed me.[/quote]

You're welcome. We are Catholic, not cretin.


[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 September 2009 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1252160103' post='1961283']
But seriously now, I went through the string of replies and all you have done is blow a lot of smoke and dust into the air with your trite little comments. What am I supposed to say to the one who said, "don't speak to us in capital letters"?[/quote]


This is what I was referring to in terms of tone. We tend to try and respect each other and to observe general etiquette. Simple as that.



[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 September 2009 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1252160103' post='1961283']
We feel we are [i][b]rightly dividing the word of God [/b][/i]in stark contrast to your belief system [/quote]

Catholics don't believe the Word of God is to be "divided." Our belief is that Scripture is one and indivisible. It says the same thing from beginning to end.

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 September 2009 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1252160103' post='1961283']
and that izzzzzzz "evangelizing", contrary to the one who said it wasn't. IMHO, most of you are hiding behind the excuse of it being too long so you won't have to lift a finger to support your views. In reality, I think you probably weren't aware of the mountain of logical and biblical arguments to validate Jesus was speaking figuratively-- and so, behind a closed bathroom door you've probably had to grab a sedative with the realization that the word of God is indeed more powerful than any two-edged sword and you just don't know what to do when you see it is chopping down the hocus-pocus-domininocus of "The Real Presence" [i]at its roots.
[/i][/quote]

1. Condescending. Rarely are people's hearts and mind won with character assassination. And please, don't respond with the "Jesus turned over the tables" answer. There is a difference between righteous anger and generally just being unpleasant.
2. Since I spent over 30 years as an evangelical Protestant, I'm pretty familiar with the "logical and biblical arguments" against the Catholic position. Your continued little digs and insinuations that somehow Catholicism is a mental problem aren't appreciated. Btw, the word of God is indeed more powerful than a two-edged sword. Hence, I am Catholic.

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 September 2009 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1252160103' post='1961283']
Incidentally Meg, I'm so glad you believe what Jesus says. Now tell me: God has announced in Scripture in more than 5 places, the direct, emphatic, and unambiguous statement that "ALL HAVE SINNED". Even a child could understand that......because GOD HAS SAID WHAT HE MEANT. Now why don't you believe it[i]???????[/i] You and your church simply spit in His face and tell us that Mary is an EXCEPTION! What part of "all" was confusing for you my dear? Which is exactly what you will hear from the the Lord (as well as Mary) on Judgment Day.[/quote]

As others have said, if you are trying to argue a refutation of the Catholic belief of the Eucharist, please stay on topic. However, since you brought it up...

1. A newborn infant dies. Has he/she sinned?
2. Those who live to adulthood yet suffer from some mental incapacitation which prohibits them from comprehending the difference between right and wrong...sinners?

I am particularly fascinated that the evangelical position is that the Bible is, in all cases, literally true...well, except for that whole hokey "Eucharist" thing (of course that is figurative!), and the everyone is a sinner thing (because there are obvious exceptions to that evidenced in nature). You can't have a belief that the Bible is literally true in all aspects except where you determine it to be figurative. What documents do you have from the apostles to indicate that Christ taught the Eucharist to be a symbol, outside of your own interpretation of the gospel texts? The Catholic Church has thousands of years of history to reinforce the arguments of its dogma. Evangelicals can date back to roughly the 17th century where they can proudly point to a group of dissenters as their primary source material.

I appreciate your vigor in defense of your position. I hope that you can give those of us here equal respect.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Hello Storm, my fellow brother in Christ Jesus, who has died and is Risen.

I see alot of false interpretation of scripture in this argument, Storm. To try and prove your idea, You are pulling all of your quotations of scripture out of context. A very dangerous thing to do. We cannot interpret scripture without the Church, which was founded on Peter. St. Paul says in (2 thess. 2:15) "So then brethren,stand firm and hold the traditions which you were taught by us, either by [u]word of mouth [/u]or by [u]letter[/u]."

-It appears that you are putting sola scriptura into practice, And excluding the traditions of the Apostles and Bishops. Which St. Paul clearly says not to do. other scriptures condemnind sola scriptura follow 1Cor. 11:12, 2Tim. 1:13-14, 2Tim. 2: 1-2, 2Peter 1:20-21, and 2John 12.

-If the Eucharist is not the real presence of Christ, why would St. Paul say in (1 Cor. 11:27).. "Whoever, therefor, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord" And all of Chapter 6 of John crushes any argument against the Eucharist... That is, if you dont pull little bits and peices out of context.


-And it would be very sad if the core of the Church from its very infancy, was worshipping mere bread as its God. Christs church was suffering martydom for this "mere bread" since his Ascension. Study Christian history and observe the facts. So the majority of Christians were worshipping "bread" from the year 33 AD until the 1500's? Even Martin Luther believed in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, but he couldnt accept the teachings on adoration and exposition. And truthfully, the Catholic Church is still the largest Christian church.

-Also a couple little insights that might help you Storm...Did not Jesus take the form of an embryo inside the womb of Mary? Wouldnt it have been very hard to recognize him in this hiddeness...a little bloody round clot inside Mary the Ark. And yet John the Baptist recognized him and was sanctified in the womb. Later Christ was born in Bethlehem and Bethlehem means "House of Bread", and he was placed in a manger a place for FEEDING, on top of straw....which is the empty remains of what WHEAT is extracted from. And a star guided the very Wise Men to come and ADORE him.