Mutual Indwelling

[rkwright]

Can someone help with the idea of Mutual Indwelling? I realize this might be better suited for Transmundane, but theres not much traffic there.

How can we say that the Persons of the trinity are distinct yet mutually indwell in each other?

[Apotheoun]

[i]A helpful text:[/i]


[b]Concerning the Divine Nature[/b]

Uncreate, without beginning, immortal, infinite, eternal, immaterial, good, creative, just, enlightening, immutable, passionless, uncircumscribed, immeasurable, unlimited, undefined, unseen, unthinkable, wanting in nothing, being His own rule and authority, all-ruling, life-giving, omnipotent, of infinite power, containing and maintaining the universe and making provision for all: all these and such like attributes the Deity possesses by nature, not having received them from elsewhere, but Himself imparting all good to His own creations according to the capacity of each.

The subsistences dwell and are established firmly in one another. For they are inseparable and cannot part from one another, but keep to their separate courses within one another, without coalescing or mingling, but cleaving to each other. For the Son is in the Father and the Spirit: and the Spirit in the Father and the Son: and the Father in the Son and the Spirit, but there is no coalescence or commingling or confusion. And there is one and the same motion: for there is one impulse and one motion of the three subsistences, which is not to be observed in any created nature.

Further the divine effulgence and energy, being one and simple and indivisible, assuming many varied forms in its goodness among what is divisible and allotting to each the component parts of its own nature, still remains simple and is multiplied without division among the divided, and gathers and converts the divided into its own simplicity. For all things long after it and have their existence in it. It gives also to all things being according to their several natures, and it is itself the being of existing things, the life of living things, the reason of rational beings, the thought of thinking beings. But it is itself above mind and reason and life and essence.

Further the divine nature has the property of penetrating all things without mixing with them and of being itself impenetrable by anything else. Moreover, there is the property of knowing all things with a simple knowledge and of seeing all things, simply with His divine, all-surveying, immaterial eye, both the things of the present, and the things of the past, and the things of the future, before they come into being. It is also sinless, and can cast sin out, and bring salvation: and all that it wills, it can accomplish, but does not will all it could accomplish. For it could destroy the universe but it does not will so to do.

St. John Damascene, [i]De Fide Orthodoxa[/i], Book I, Chapter 14

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='rkwright' date='01 September 2009 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1251843314' post='1959548']
Can someone help with the idea of Mutual Indwelling? I realize this might be better suited for Transmundane, but theres not much traffic there.

How can we say that the Persons of the trinity are distinct yet mutually indwell in each other?
[/quote]

My own theology, and its probably wrong, but it makes sense to me.


Being we are created in the image and likeness of God, we can look at our own being to understand the
Trinity.

We are made up of body, soul and when we die, spirit.

So God the Father = Soul

God the Son = the body

God the Holy Ghost, = Spirit.

Or you could just use St Patrick's example in the three leaf clover. There seperate leaf's, but one clover.

Jim

[rkwright]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='02 September 2009 - 03:10 PM' timestamp='1251922227' post='1959948']
My own theology, and its probably wrong, but it makes sense to me.


Being we are created in the image and likeness of God, we can look at our own being to understand the
Trinity.

We are made up of body, soul and when we die, spirit.

So God the Father = Soul

God the Son = the body

God the Holy Ghost, = Spirit.

Or you could just use St Patrick's example in the three leaf clover. There seperate leaf's, but one clover.

Jim
[/quote]

My intro to theology textbook uses the example of the body also... except it uses it to describe the modalist heresy.

Edit: That may have come off harsh, I didn't mean it that way. But my book actually quotes Epiphanius of Constantia discussing the Sebellians describing God as a human being.

Edited September 3, 2009 by rkwright

[Vincent Vega]

What is/is there a difference between the soul and the spirit?
[i]Anima[/i] means both, I thought.

Edited September 3, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[rkwright]

Apo, maybe this is getting off topic, but would you mind giving an "intro" into the Trinity? Your knowledge is vast and would be much appreciated.

If not, I do have a question... Can it be said that each person of the Trinity plays a different role without being modalist? How is that?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' date='02 September 2009 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1251941602' post='1960132']
My intro to theology textbook uses the example of the body also... except it uses it to describe the modalist heresy.

Edit: That may have come off harsh, I didn't mean it that way. But my book actually quotes Epiphanius of Constantia discussing the Sebellians describing God as a human being.
[/quote]
In the text that I quoted from St. John Damascene's [i]De Fide Orthodoxa[/i] the second paragraph gives a summary (albeit brief) of the patristic understanding of the perichoresis (i.e., the mutual indwelling) of the three divine hypostaseis, and -- as the final sentence in that paragraph makes clear -- there is no perichoretic analogue to the Trinity within creation. That said, our sources for understanding this doctrine, to the degree that that even possible, are restricted to revelation as found in scripture and tradition.

Taking into account what I have said, I believe that a deeper analysis of what St. John wrote in the quoted text, i.e., by looking at the specific terms he used and the way in which he used them to describe the relations of the divine hypostaseis, while also comparing his comments to things decreed by the holy ecumenical councils, could bear fruit in giving a better understanding of what Christ revealed in the Gospel about the relations that exist eternally between the three divine hypostaseis. The type of analysis that I am talking about would take some time to formulate, but I will try to post something in the next couple of days that should allow us to delve more deeply into the mystery together.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Apotheoun

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='rkwright' date='01 September 2009 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1251843314' post='1959548']
Can someone help with the idea of Mutual Indwelling? I realize this might be better suited for Transmundane, but theres not much traffic there.

How can we say that the Persons of the trinity are distinct yet mutually indwell in each other?
[/quote]

Since you posted this on the Debate forum... let me just say that I think you should've asked this on the Transmundane forum anyway. It's there for serious theological questions, hence the lack of mindless dribble on other stuff. See, I thought this was going to be a question about co-habitation with some kind of theological twist.

So, are you looking for a metaphor? Or justification for belief in the Trinity? Three-leaf clover, Council of Nicea, and the easily observable fact that humanity is designed to live in communion.

Other people have provided the long answers...

[perfectunion33]

Yes, I am somewhat confused with the teaching on the Blessed Trinity. Since Christ has taken on flesh and now has a body in Heaven, how is it that God has no body? The Scirptures say that the fullness of God abides in Christ, and if the fullness of God abides in Christ than how is it that God has no body? "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." Christ is the Image of God. He also said, the He was the Temple of God. If Christ is now the Living Vessel of God, than how is it that God has no body? One Nature, Three Divine Persons. My nature is a human being, but my person is Michael. Therefore, it would seem as if God could still have One Body, which is Christ, and Three Divine Persons as well, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Please clarify this for me.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='perfectunion33' date='17 September 2009 - 12:10 PM' timestamp='1253211030' post='1968114']
Yes, I am somewhat confused with the teaching on the Blessed Trinity. Since Christ has taken on flesh and now has a body in Heaven, how is it that God has no body? The Scriptures say that the fullness of God abides in Christ, and if the fullness of God abides in Christ than how is it that God has no body? "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." Christ is the Image of God. He also said, the He was the Temple of God. If Christ is now the Living Vessel of God, than how is it that God has no body? One Nature, Three Divine Persons. My nature is a human being, but my person is Michael. Therefore, it would seem as if God could still have One Body, which is Christ, and Three Divine Persons as well, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Please clarify this for me.
[/quote]
God the Son has a body, but the Father and the Holy Spirit do not. In Christian theology it is important to keep the distinction of persons in mind, and so simply saying "God has a body" is not as theological precise as saying that "God the Son," or the "Second Person of the Holy Trinity," or the "Eternal Logos" has a body, etc.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='perfectunion33' date='17 September 2009 - 12:10 PM' timestamp='1253211030' post='1968114']
My nature is a human being, but my person is Michael. Therefore, it would seem as if God could still have One Body, which is Christ, and Three Divine Persons as well, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Please clarify this for me.
[/quote]
This is theologically incorrect. Human nature is an abstraction, which has no existence in separation from an actual human person. It is your [i]hypostasis[/i] (i.e., person) which gives being to your nature making it concretely real. In the teaching of the Church Fathers there is a real distinction between [i]person / subsistence[/i] (prosopon / hypostasis) and [i]nature / essence[/i] (physis / ousia).

[rkwright]

Just as a side question... how is God the Son's physical body "omnipresent", or is it? How can matter be "unrestrained" by time and space - it seems by definition matter has limits.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' date='17 September 2009 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1253214837' post='1968153']
Just as a side question... how is God the Son's physical body "omnipresent", or is it? How can matter be "unrestrained" by time and space - it seems by definition matter has limits.
[/quote]
How did Christ after His resurrection pass through solid walls? His physical body is governed completely by the spiritual power / energy of the eternal Son of God. Any explanation of the mystery will inevitably fall short of the spiritual reality of Christ's glorified body.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='17 September 2009 - 02:17 PM' timestamp='1253215037' post='1968157']
How did Christ after His resurrection pass through solid walls? His physical body is governed completely by the spiritual power / energy of the eternal Son of God. Any explanation of the mystery will inevitably fall short of the spiritual reality of Christ's glorified body.
[/quote]
I figured this was the answer.

Any update on the things you mentioned in post 7?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' date='17 September 2009 - 02:00 PM' timestamp='1253217658' post='1968174']
I figured this was the answer.

Any update on the things you mentioned in post 7?
[/quote]
Other than reading through some of St. John Damascene's texts that deal with perichoresis, I have not been able to compose anything of consequence, but I hope to do so soon, once my back is feeling better.