Charismatic Worship

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='iheartjp2' date='29 August 2009 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1251591023' post='1958077']
Iwas thinking about that last night. I attend a parish that happens tobe one of the only parishes in the world that a bishop has allowed tohave a professed and overt charismatic identity. It also happens to beone of 3 of the parishes in my city where one can go to awell-structured NO mass on a Sunday (there are 5 parishes in my town,including a student parish ).

It also happens to be one of two parishes in my diocese of 10 counties that has a perpetual adoration chapel.

Todisagree on the nature of charismatics or the gifts that they believeto be real and at work in the Church is one thing, but to generalizethem all to be 1) un-Eucharistic 2) irreverant and 3) self-centered andentirely focused on emotion isn't fair to all of them. The Church isdiminishing in the U.S. and Europe while it's growing in leaps andbounds in Africa and South America [i]because[/i] of the witness ofcharismatics. Not to get off topic, I just thought that the comment wasa bit unnecessary and not really in good taste.
[/quote]

I do want to talk about this but I don't want to hijack the other thread.

Where the Church is growing it is growing because of the Holy Spirit, no doubt. The Holy Spirit does choose to work through people as well, this is true. However, I don't believe that charismatic worship is truly conducive to prayer. Read any of the Saints' descriptions of prayer and you will never find anything like a charismatic worship service described. I honestly believe that charismatic worship services focus very much on the self while claiming to focus on the Spirit. The passions are elevated and the intellect and will are forgotten, which is anything but divine. The proper order of our souls is thus:

Intellect (which leads the)
Will (which leads the)
Passions

After the fall, we became prone to allow the passions to lead the will to lead the intellect (concupiscence). This order is no order at all; it is disorder. This disorder is encouraged and strengthened by charismatic prayer, and there is no true meditation or contemplation. The vocal prayer at charismatic worship services can be good, but often it is simply used to stir the passions. By charismatic prayer, the passions are given a false sense of identity as the primary way to connect with God. This is wrong and misleading, and [b]it makes higher forms of prayer distasteful to individuals accustomed to charismatic prayer[/b]. I can't tell you how many people I know who spent all of high school "on fire" for the Lord because of charismatic prayer, but as they mature and find higher forms of prayer (meditation, contemplation) they find them boring. Unexciting.

I am not denying that the Spirit can give gifts as he pleases. I am denying that he acts primarily through the passions, which is what charismatic prayer is most focused on.

Also, it is not our job to fill the pews. If one form of prayer (and a low one, at that) is attractive to people and is guaranteed to fill the pews, this is no reason to diminish the dignity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Mass is meant not only to be vocal prayer, but meditative and contemplative, and it is structured so that the congregation CAN have times of silence in order to offer itself as a sacrifice to the Lord. The Mass should never be an attempt to arouse the passions, even good ones. The Mass is a sacrifice, and if we structure our intellect and our will in accordance with that then the passions will follow in time. At first they will fail, though, because we are fallen, and in order to come into more perfect union with the Divine we must overcome them. I believe that to use charismatic prayer at Mass is to put an obstacle between oneself and the Dark Night of the Soul which is so necessary for true deification.

[iheartjp2]

How "charismatic" a mass can be largely depends on what one considers to be charismatic. What does "charismatic" mean to you, aalpha?

[SrMagnificat]

When my older daughter was in her teens, a Pentacostal neighbor, a kind woman, took her to church with her family. Rachel was so enamored with their service, that she wanted to join the church with them. I told her that one of the beauties of being Catholic is the fullness of faith we enjoy. I told her that she could not only find the Holy Spirit apparent in worship, but many parishes in African American communities (we are black ourselves)have full Gospel Masses.

I sent her to a Franciscan University Youth Conference in Steubenville when she was fifteen. She makes a pilgrimage there every year now and joined the local Charismatic Renewal in our diocese. She is very active and attends the Charismatic Womens meetings once each month, the Charismatic Mass once each month and attends their prayer meetings each week. She is a HUGE fan of Fr. Stan Fortuna.

I understand that for many Catholic Christians, it is not their cup of tea, but for many, especially young people, Charismatic worship brings their faith alive. To many, it is a visible sign of the Holy Spirit. And EVERY young person's favorite part of the conference, the high point, is Adoration. My eyes well up in tears each time I experience it.

Kyrie,
SrMagnificat

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='iheartjp2' date='29 August 2009 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1251592839' post='1958101']
How "charismatic" a mass can be largely depends on what one considers to be charismatic. What does "charismatic" mean to you, aalpha?
[/quote]

I didn't really know how to answer this question because I didn't know how to explain it... Steubenville retreats would be a good example, as well as many lifeteen events I have been to, though I know that each parish is different for lifeteen.

[quote name='SrMagnificat' date='30 August 2009 - 09:14 PM' timestamp='1251681280' post='1958601']
When my older daughter was in her teens, a Pentacostal neighbor, a kind woman, took her to church with her family. Rachel was so enamored with their service, that she wanted to join the church with them. I told her that one of the beauties of being Catholic is the fullness of faith we enjoy. I told her that she could not only find the Holy Spirit apparent in worship, but many parishes in African American communities (we are black ourselves)have full Gospel Masses.

I sent her to a Franciscan University Youth Conference in Steubenville when she was fifteen. She makes a pilgrimage there every year now and joined the local Charismatic Renewal in our diocese. She is very active and attends the Charismatic Womens meetings once each month, the Charismatic Mass once each month and attends their prayer meetings each week. She is a HUGE fan of Fr. Stan Fortuna.

I understand that for many Catholic Christians, it is not their cup of tea, but for many, especially young people, Charismatic worship brings their faith alive. To many, it is a visible sign of the Holy Spirit. And EVERY young person's favorite part of the conference, the high point, is Adoration. My eyes well up in tears each time I experience it.

Kyrie,
SrMagnificat
[/quote]

Thank you for your witness, and I promise that nothing I say will be directed specifically at you or at your daughter.
I have been on a Steubenville conference, and it is those Masses that I am talking about when I say that charismatic Masses are unacceptable. It is sad that Adoration is the youth's favorite part of the retreat because Mass is every day, and our lives should revolve around that Holy Sacrifice. One of the primary purposes of Adoration is to increase Eucharistic devotion during the Mass and to increase longing for the next reception of Holy Communion. If Adoration is enjoyed more than Mass is, then the point is missed completely.

I don't believe that charismatic worship brings the faith alive. I believe that charismatic worship brings the passions alive, which gives the illusion of a deep prayer life. In Spiritual Combat (the book St. Francis de Sales carried around with him as spiritual direction) Lorenzo Scupoli describes how easy it is to become comfortable in our faith in our prayer life and how this comfort is illusory. We should always be striving for a deeper prayer life. I believe that charismatic worship only encourages the individual to stay in a very shallow level of prayer and provides an illusory feeling of comfort, and this is why I believe it is dangerous.

Whether it is dangerous or not, it is not appropriate for Mass. Mass is meant to be solemn. Solemn does not mean sad, it simply means reverent. It means recognizing that there is something awesome and incomprehensible at work, and that means overcoming the emotions. If one is dependant on emotional impact then one will never truly advance in the spiritual life.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='30 August 2009 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1251682017' post='1958617']
I didn't really know how to answer this question because I didn't know how to explain it... Steubenville retreats would be a good example, as well as many lifeteen events I have been to, though I know that each parish is different for lifeteen.



Thank you for your witness, and I promise that nothing I say will be directed specifically at you or at your daughter.
I have been on a Steubenville conference, and it is those Masses that I am talking about when I say that charismatic Masses are unacceptable. It is sad that Adoration is the youth's favorite part of the retreat because Mass is every day, and our lives should revolve around that Holy Sacrifice. One of the primary purposes of Adoration is to increase Eucharistic devotion during the Mass and to increase longing for the next reception of Holy Communion. If Adoration is enjoyed more than Mass is, then the point is missed completely.

I don't believe that charismatic worship brings the faith alive. I believe that charismatic worship brings the passions alive, which gives the illusion of a deep prayer life. In Spiritual Combat (the book St. Francis de Sales carried around with him as spiritual direction) Lorenzo Scupoli describes how easy it is to become comfortable in our faith in our prayer life and how this comfort is illusory. We should always be striving for a deeper prayer life. I believe that charismatic worship only encourages the individual to stay in a very shallow level of prayer and provides an illusory feeling of comfort, and this is why I believe it is dangerous.

Whether it is dangerous or not, it is not appropriate for Mass. Mass is meant to be solemn. Solemn does not mean sad, it simply means reverent. It means recognizing that there is something awesome and incomprehensible at work, and that means overcoming the emotions. If one is dependant on emotional impact then one will never truly advance in the spiritual life.
[/quote]
You are entitled to your opinion. As long as its done according to the rubrics, and accepted by the Church, and approved by the local Bishop there can be no real issues with it as Catholics. It may not be your cup of tea and certainly not mine, but then we are not in charge I lean more to a simple sunday no frills mass. Emotions are not our enemy and you must have never attened a catholic Mass in primarily black church.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='30 August 2009 - 09:26 PM' timestamp='1251682017' post='1958617']
(1)I didn't really know how to answer this question because I didn't know how to explain it... Steubenville retreats would be a good example, as well as many lifeteen events I have been to, though I know that each parish is different for lifeteen.



(2)Thank you for your witness, and I promise that nothing I say will be directed specifically at you or at your daughter.
I have been on a Steubenville conference, and it is those Masses that I am talking about when I say that charismatic Masses are unacceptable. It is sad that Adoration is the youth's favorite part of the retreat because Mass is every day, and our lives should revolve around that Holy Sacrifice. One of the primary purposes of Adoration is to increase Eucharistic devotion during the Mass and to increase longing for the next reception of Holy Communion. If Adoration is enjoyed more than Mass is, then the point is missed completely.

(3)I don't believe that charismatic worship brings the faith alive. I believe that charismatic worship brings the passions alive, which gives the illusion of a deep prayer life. In Spiritual Combat (the book St. Francis de Sales carried around with him as spiritual direction) Lorenzo Scupoli describes how easy it is to become comfortable in our faith in our prayer life and how this comfort is illusory. We should always be striving for a deeper prayer life. I believe that charismatic worship only encourages the individual to stay in a very shallow level of prayer and provides an illusory feeling of comfort, and this is why I believe it is dangerous.

(4)Whether it is dangerous or not, it is not appropriate for Mass. Mass is meant to be solemn. Solemn does not mean sad, it simply means reverent. It means recognizing that there is something awesome and incomprehensible at work, and that means overcoming the emotions. If one is dependant on emotional impact then one will never truly advance in the spiritual life.
[/quote]

1. Well with the admission that you don't know how to explain what the word "charismatic" means to you, I'll give you the opportunity to form your own opinion. I'd encourage you to check out this page from my parish's website so as to hear from a bishop-approved, charismatic parish what they believe to be the true meaning of the word "charismatic": [url="http://www.rc.net/lansing/ctk/welcome/index.html"]Christ the King Catholic Parish: Welcome[/url] We can't really discuss what should and shouldn't be in the mass that's charismatic when we don't even know to what we're referring, so I thought this might help.

2. I understand what you've said about the purpose of eucharistic adoration in relation to the mass, and I would agree. What I don't understand is why you would hold as absolute which one should enjoy more. While one needs to understand the importance that the mass has in his life, for him to enjoy adoring the Lord in his real presence more than receiving could simply be a phase in spiritual growth while he comes to a fuller understanding of what he receives in mass. On the matter of objective importance to the Christian life, mass will always trump adoration, but when speaking of enjoyment of one over enjoyment of the other, to say that one is "missing the point [of the mass] completely" is absurd. It's kind of like saying that someone enjoys the Feast of the Assumption more than they enjoy the Feast of Pentecost although Pentecost always trumps the Assumption in terms of relevance to our faith. They don't "miss the point" of Pentecost just because they like attending a Marian feast day more. A lot of people have a huger devotion to Mary than they do to the Holy Spirit. It doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit plays no role in how they understand the faith.

3. I was discussing charismatic worship with a friend of mine today after our weekly post-mass brunch and what he had to say made me really think about the nature of charismatic worship. He reminded me of something I had said about the nature of our person, that we have an intellect and emotions and since they're two essential components of our make-up, they can't really be divorced while it's still important for them to be controlled (not necessarily meaning suppressed). He explained that while we worship God, in a true offering of our whole self, that our emotions are serving an even greater purpose when given to God then than when we hold the reigns of them ourselves. While we know what we're doing by our intellect, we are brought to a place of purer emotion AND purer thought when we offer both to God and not just one. Why you believe that to accompany intellectual thought with emotion in our spiritual life is "illusory", I don't understand because from what I've seen of the Charismatic renewal, there is no complacency. One of the things that our pastor [i]constantly[/i], in [i]every[/i] homily asks us to do is to surrender more and more to the love of Christ in the power of his Holy Spirit. He asks us to pray every day for a deeper knowledge of God and his will for our lives because no matter the gospel reading or the topic at hand that any of the readings present, the #1 solution to any problem is the guidance of God through his Holy Spirit and to grow complacent in one place would be to stint that growth in his love and his power that we want desparately. You may be giving an account of what you perceive to be some type of complacency, but it's simply not true if you're not just looking at the surface.

(4) My friend and I also discussed the word "solemn" today. We're both Latinists and he pointed me to an example: the word [i]solemnis[/i]. [i]Solemnis[/i], from whence we get the English word "solemn" literally means "festive", which I've found is the opposite of current English definitions because of the attitude that many have had in religious observance for centuries which formed the connotation for the word, in my opinion. While you're correct in saying that solemn doesn't mean sombre or sad, it also doesn't necessarily mean reverent (not to say that reverence isn't important, because it definitely is, and you probably won't find a parish more reverent than my own if you decide to visit the Ann Arbor area). Reverence is an internal state of deep respect that can be expressed outwardly. Solemnity (using the current English definition, not the meaning of the very word from which it's derived) is a complete outward state of being and doesn't even require that one be changed internally. As far as the two go, I'd put reverence over solemnity because one requires internal recognition of the gravity of an event while the other could be shown while going through the motions of the same event and frankly, the latter wouldn't matter to God as much as the former.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='30 August 2009 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1251688984' post='1958687']
You are entitled to your opinion. As long as its done according to the rubrics, and accepted by the Church, and approved by the local Bishop there can be no real issues with it as Catholics. It may not be your cup of tea and certainly not mine, but then we are not in charge I lean more to a simple sunday no frills mass. Emotions are not our enemy and you must have never attened a catholic Mass in primarily black church.
[/quote]

"The soul must pass through the dark night of the senses because all the passions it feels for created things (i.e. appealing praise and worship music, strong beats that push forward the great feeling at charismatic prayer services) are pure darkness in God's eyes. [b]When the soul is imbued with the passions, it lacks the capacity for being enlightened and possessed by God's pure and simple light. Light cannot agree with darkness. As John says: The darkness could not receive the light.[/b]

Two opposite qualities cannot coexist in one person. Darkness, which is passion for created things, and light, which is God, are opposites. As Paul said to the Corinthians: What communion can there be between light and darkness? The light of divine union cannot dwell in the soul if the passions are still present.

The passions and attachment the soul has for created things make the soul similar to these created things. The greater the passion, the greater the likeness between them. Love creates likness between one who loves and the object of its love.

One who loves a created thing becomes as low as that created thing, and in some ways lower. Love not only makes the lover equal to the object of his love, but even subjects him to it. In the same way the soul that loves anything else becomes incapable of pure union with God and transformation in him. The low estate of the created thing is much less capable of union with the high estate of the Creator than is darkness with light.

....

The soul is ignorant to think it can reach union with God if it does not first empty itself of the desire for all things. There is enormous distance between transformation in God and our worldly state. When showing us this path, Jesus said: The one who refuses to renounce with the will all things he possesses cannot be my disciple. As long as the soul does not reject all things it is incapable of receiving the Spirit of God in pure transformation."

-St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mount Carmel

I realize that he says that these passions are disordered insofar as they are directed toward created things, but I believe that a dependancy on these passions counts as a created thing. This dependancy forms because these highly emotional Masses are all one experiences for years, and then one is suddenly thrown into a "normal" or "average" parish and suddenly the prayer life is down the hole. I have seen it more than once- in fact I have seen it many times. If our prayer life is that dependant on emotions then it was never a true prayer life to begin with.

I don't think it can be argued that charismatic worship is not emotion centered, and John of the Cross goes on and on in all of his works about how the passions only hinder our journey to the Divine (and if you ask Apotheoun, the Eastern Fathers all say the same thing). It is not that the passions are evil (which I never claimed), but that they are fallen, and that when we allow them to lead us (even in prayer) it is a sure fire way of seeing that we are not on the right path. The intellect must always lead the passions, this is the correct order of our souls, and the order we were created to have (well technically it is the intellect leading the will leading the passions, as I said before).

Engaging in charismatic worship does nothing to suppress our disordered passions (which tell us that guitars and praise and worship is "ok" during Mass), but instead strengthens our bond to lower forms of worship which are not worthy of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Ratzinger writes in the Spirit of the Liturgy that rock music is not appropriate during the Mass because it "arouses our primal passions".

cmom, I am honestly answering in all humility; my next statement is not one of arrogance or of pride, but it is one made with the sincere belief of veracity.

I believe that Catholics CAN have real issues with charismatic Masses no matter what the circumstances, because the position I am stating is based only on the writings of Saints, popes, and Church Fathers. [b] [/b]I don't remember if it was de Sales or the book which influenced him, but one of the two speaks of the dangers of being unduly attached to specific religious devotions; that it is possible to be attached to the devotion itself, and not to God, into whom the devotion is supposed to bring us into union. I realize that this can be and often is the case for traditional minded people; however, I suspect it is very frequently the case with charismatics.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='iheartjp2' date='30 August 2009 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1251690884' post='1958700']
1. Well with the admission that you don't know how to explain what the word "charismatic" means to you, I'll give you the opportunity to form your own opinion. I'd encourage you to check out this page from my parish's website so as to hear from a bishop-approved, charismatic parish what they believe to be the true meaning of the word "charismatic": [url="http://www.rc.net/lansing/ctk/welcome/index.html"]Christ the King Catholic Parish: Welcome[/url] We can't really discuss what should and shouldn't be in the mass that's charismatic when we don't even know to what we're referring, so I thought this might help.

2. I understand what you've said about the purpose of eucharistic adoration in relation to the mass, and I would agree. What I don't understand is why you would hold as absolute which one should enjoy more. While one needs to understand the importance that the mass has in his life, for him to enjoy adoring the Lord in his real presence more than receiving could simply be a phase in spiritual growth while he comes to a fuller understanding of what he receives in mass. On the matter of objective importance to the Christian life, mass will always trump adoration, but when speaking of enjoyment of one over enjoyment of the other, to say that one is "missing the point [of the mass] completely" is absurd. It's kind of like saying that someone enjoys the Feast of the Assumption more than they enjoy the Feast of Pentecost although Pentecost always trumps the Assumption in terms of relevance to our faith. They don't "miss the point" of Pentecost just because they like attending a Marian feast day more. A lot of people have a huger devotion to Mary than they do to the Holy Spirit. It doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit plays no role in how they understand the faith.

3. I was discussing charismatic worship with a friend of mine today after our weekly post-mass brunch and what he had to say made me really think about the nature of charismatic worship. He reminded me of something I had said about the nature of our person, that we have an intellect and emotions and since they're two essential components of our make-up, they can't really be divorced while it's still important for them to be controlled (not necessarily meaning suppressed). He explained that while we worship God, in a true offering of our whole self, that our emotions are serving an even greater purpose when given to God then than when we hold the reigns of them ourselves. While we know what we're doing by our intellect, we are brought to a place of purer emotion AND purer thought when we offer both to God and not just one. Why you believe that to accompany intellectual thought with emotion in our spiritual life is "illusory", I don't understand because from what I've seen of the Charismatic renewal, there is no complacency. One of the things that our pastor [i]constantly[/i], in [i]every[/i] homily asks us to do is to surrender more and more to the love of Christ in the power of his Holy Spirit. He asks us to pray every day for a deeper knowledge of God and his will for our lives because no matter the gospel reading or the topic at hand that any of the readings present, the #1 solution to any problem is the guidance of God through his Holy Spirit and to grow complacent in one place would be to stint that growth in his love and his power that we want desparately. You may be giving an account of what you perceive to be some type of complacency, but it's simply not true if you're not just looking at the surface.

(4) My friend and I also discussed the word "solemn" today. We're both Latinists and he pointed me to an example: the word [i]solemnis[/i]. [i]Solemnis[/i], from whence we get the English word "solemn" literally means "festive", which I've found is the opposite of current English definitions because of the attitude that many have had in religious observance for centuries which formed the connotation for the word, in my opinion. While you're correct in saying that solemn doesn't mean sombre or sad, it also doesn't necessarily mean reverent (not to say that reverence isn't important, because it definitely is, and you probably won't find a parish more reverent than my own if you decide to visit the Ann Arbor area). Reverence is an internal state of deep respect that can be expressed outwardly. Solemnity (using the current English definition, not the meaning of the very word from which it's derived) is a complete outward state of being and doesn't even require that one be changed internally. As far as the two go, I'd put reverence over solemnity because one requires internal recognition of the gravity of an event while the other could be shown while going through the motions of the same event and frankly, the latter wouldn't matter to God as much as the former.
[/quote]

I started writing my post before I saw your reply... I'll think about what you have said and then post a reply.

I'm glad that we are having a civil debate and not getting angry at each other. I hate it when the debate table turns into the wrestling ring. Thank God for Christian charity.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='31 August 2009 - 01:20 AM' timestamp='1251692422' post='1958713']
"The soul must pass through the dark night of the senses because all the passions it feels for created things (i.e. appealing praise and worship music, strong beats that push forward the great feeling at charismatic prayer services) are pure darkness in God's eyes. [b]When the soul is imbued with the passions, it lacks the capacity for being enlightened and possessed by God's pure and simple light. Light cannot agree with darkness. As John says: The darkness could not receive the light.[/b]

Two opposite qualities cannot coexist in one person. Darkness, which is passion for created things, and light, which is God, are opposites. As Paul said to the Corinthians: What communion can there be between light and darkness? The light of divine union cannot dwell in the soul if the passions are still present.

The passions and attachment the soul has for created things make the soul similar to these created things. The greater the passion, the greater the likeness between them. Love creates likness between one who loves and the object of its love.

One who loves a created thing becomes as low as that created thing, and in some ways lower. Love not only makes the lover equal to the object of his love, but even subjects him to it. In the same way the soul that loves anything else becomes incapable of pure union with God and transformation in him. The low estate of the created thing is much less capable of union with the high estate of the Creator than is darkness with light.

....

The soul is ignorant to think it can reach union with God if it does not first empty itself of the desire for all things. There is enormous distance between transformation in God and our worldly state. When showing us this path, Jesus said: The one who refuses to renounce with the will all things he possesses cannot be my disciple. As long as the soul does not reject all things it is incapable of receiving the Spirit of God in pure transformation."

-St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mount Carmel

I realize that he says that these passions are disordered insofar as they are directed toward created things, but I believe that a dependancy on these passions counts as a created thing. This dependancy forms because these highly emotional Masses are all one experiences for years, and then one is suddenly thrown into a "normal" or "average" parish and suddenly the prayer life is down the hole. I have seen it more than once- in fact I have seen it many times. If our prayer life is that dependant on emotions then it was never a true prayer life to begin with.

I don't think it can be argued that charismatic worship is not emotion centered, and John of the Cross goes on and on in all of his works about how the passions only hinder our journey to the Divine (and if you ask Apotheoun, the Eastern Fathers all say the same thing). It is not that the passions are evil (which I never claimed), but that they are fallen, and that when we allow them to lead us (even in prayer) it is a sure fire way of seeing that we are not on the right path. The intellect must always lead the passions, this is the correct order of our souls, and the order we were created to have (well technically it is the intellect leading the will leading the passions, as I said before).

Engaging in charismatic worship does nothing to suppress our disordered passions (which tell us that guitars and praise and worship is "ok" during Mass), but instead strengthens our bond to lower forms of worship which are not worthy of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Ratzinger writes in the Spirit of the Liturgy that rock music is not appropriate during the Mass because it "arouses our primal passions".

cmom, I am honestly answering in all humility; my next statement is not one of arrogance or of pride, but it is one made with the sincere belief of veracity.

I believe that Catholics CAN have real issues with charismatic Masses no matter what the circumstances, because the position I am stating is based only on the writings of Saints, popes, and Church Fathers. [b] [/b]I don't remember if it was de Sales or the book which influenced him, but one of the two speaks of the dangers of being unduly attached to specific religious devotions; that it is possible to be attached to the devotion itself, and not to God, into whom the devotion is supposed to bring us into union. I realize that this can be and often is the case for traditional minded people; however, I suspect it is very frequently the case with charismatics.
[/quote]
I don't see expressing your will and intellect AND emotions in your worship as a bad thing. David danced before the ark. I see charismatics not devoted to any particular religious devotions, but simply being devoted to God, and expressing their beliefs AND feelings. Was not St Theresa inflamed with God? Was not St Francis transported with divine love? I am not in favor of rock music in church or praise and worship, and we are not to be ruled by feeling, but on the other hand I would rather see a church filled with joy than you average parish of people mumbling hymns and timing the homily. There has to be a happy medium, and it seems obvious that Christ the king parish mentioned above has for the most part found it. Kudos to them, and maybe we could learn something from it.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='31 August 2009 - 12:20 AM' timestamp='1251692422' post='1958713']
(1)"The soul must pass through the dark night of the senses because all the passions it feels for created things (i.e. appealing praise and worship music, strong beats that push forward the great feeling at charismatic prayer services) are pure darkness in God's eyes. [b]When the soul is imbued with the passions, it lacks the capacity for being enlightened and possessed by God's pure and simple light. Light cannot agree with darkness. As John says: The darkness could not receive the light.[/b]

(2)Two opposite qualities cannot coexist in one person. Darkness, which is passion for created things, and light, which is God, are opposites. As Paul said to the Corinthians: What communion can there be between light and darkness? The light of divine union cannot dwell in the soul if the passions are still present.

The passions and attachment the soul has for created things make the soul similar to these created things. The greater the passion, the greater the likeness between them. Love creates likness between one who loves and the object of its love.

One who loves a created thing becomes as low as that created thing, and in some ways lower. Love not only makes the lover equal to the object of his love, but even subjects him to it. In the same way the soul that loves anything else becomes incapable of pure union with God and transformation in him. The low estate of the created thing is much less capable of union with the high estate of the Creator than is darkness with light.

....

The soul is ignorant to think it can reach union with God if it does not first empty itself of the desire for all things. There is enormous distance between transformation in God and our worldly state. When showing us this path, Jesus said: The one who refuses to renounce with the will all things he possesses cannot be my disciple. As long as the soul does not reject all things it is incapable of receiving the Spirit of God in pure transformation."

-St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mount Carmel

I realize that he says that these passions are disordered insofar as they are directed toward created things, but I believe that a dependancy on these passions counts as a created thing. This dependancy forms because these highly emotional Masses are all one experiences for years, and then one is suddenly thrown into a "normal" or "average" parish and suddenly the prayer life is down the hole. I have seen it more than once- in fact I have seen it many times. If our prayer life is that dependant on emotions then it was never a true prayer life to begin with.

(3)I don't think it can be argued that charismatic worship is not emotion centered, and John of the Cross goes on and on in all of his works about how the passions only hinder our journey to the Divine (and if you ask Apotheoun, the Eastern Fathers all say the same thing). It is not that the passions are evil (which I never claimed), but that they are fallen, and that when we allow them to lead us (even in prayer) it is a sure fire way of seeing that we are not on the right path. The intellect must always lead the passions, this is the correct order of our souls, and the order we were created to have (well technically it is the intellect leading the will leading the passions, as I said before).

(4)Engaging in charismatic worship does nothing to suppress our disordered passions (which tell us that guitars and praise and worship is "ok" during Mass), but instead strengthens our bond to lower forms of worship which are not worthy of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Ratzinger writes in the Spirit of the Liturgy that rock music is not appropriate during the Mass because it "arouses our primal passions".

cmom, I am honestly answering in all humility; my next statement is not one of arrogance or of pride, but it is one made with the sincere belief of veracity.

(5)I believe that Catholics CAN have real issues with charismatic Masses no matter what the circumstances, because the position I am stating is based only on the writings of Saints, popes, and Church Fathers. [b] [/b]I don't remember if it was de Sales or the book which influenced him, but one of the two speaks of the dangers of being unduly attached to specific religious devotions; that it is possible to be attached to the devotion itself, and not to God, into whom the devotion is supposed to bring us into union. I realize that this can be and often is the case for traditional minded people; however, I suspect it is very frequently the case with charismatics.
[/quote]

1. While to one who doesn't engage in charismatic worship, certain styles of music may stand out to them more and jar their senses, to then imply that [i]this[/i] is the object of the passions of the charismatic is superficial speculation and doesn't go any further into what [i]really[/i] matters to them. I'd encourage you to do the latter.

2. Un-Godly passions do hinder God from changing us internally because He will always respect our free will. To surrender one's passions to God so as for God to use them for our devotion to him is what will make us whole rather than divided. Again, passions/attachment/emotions any variant or nuance of word or concept aren't bad in nature because they'e part of our nature. To detach ourselves from that which is evil is paramount. To then attach ourselves to that which is good, that is ALL of ourself, not just one part (the intellect) is also paramount because if we're not attached to something, we're simply set adrift. We as humans are inconstant. God and all things relating to Him (this Church, the truth, etc.) are constant and if we're going to let go of something, we need something else to hold onto, passions and all.

3. While there are charismatic circles that tend to put emotions on a pedestal, so to speak, it isn't true of all and I would say of those former that there exists in their worship no true balance. I've repeated the concept of surrendering one's emotions to God in worship as they are just as much a part of us as our intellect. It is only by our intellect that we decided that God deserves all of us [i]including[/i] our emotions that by the assent of our will, the emotions are then surrendered to God and the worship is made even more pure than if we were to have intellectual knowledge of what we were doing and yet, the emotions stay trapped in a box because we fear the release of them as being "dangerous".

4. Again, worshipping God isn't about suppression. Worshipping God is about doing what we were made to do in the freedom in which God intended us to do it. Also, define rock music because anything that charismatics tend to play at their masses tends to be closer to American country than anything else. With that, my parish usually has guitar/piano/violin/flute settings to more traditional hymns that are played just as slowly or reverently as they would be played at your run-of-the-mill parish. Again, it's not intellectually honest to assume that one's passions at a charismatic mass are being directed at the music simply because it's not the ordinary and so it stands out to you a lot more than it would to them. I'd like to know if your issue is with the style of the music itself or with the instruments used because instrumentation doesn't necessarily equate to style. I'm a music major and I'm a bit more sensative to things that deal with music than others who don't necessarily share the same interest. I think it's safe to assume that the music itself isn't even really what matters so much as the offering of worship to God. There are times during communion where there are a substantial amount of people kneeling in silent prayer, there are also people praying/singing out-loud in tongues, some have their hands raised, some don't, and all the while, [i]there's absolutely no music playing[/i]. It would be wiser to actually personally evaluate the true nature of charismatic worship than to evaluate an event or experience and speculate, making observations and then coming to conclusions that may or may not be true.

I know that you didn't see my reply before you made the one that I'm replying to now, but I just felt the need to go into even more depth with the distinction between passion for music and passion for God while the music may be different.

5. As you have written examples of authority that correctly state that the passions must be subdued by whom they were created in a pure offering to Him (as is what I read from them), there are written examples of authority, as you'll find on my parish's website, that show support for the current outpour of the Spirit in the Church today.

[CrossCuT]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='29 August 2009 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1251592508' post='1958099']
I do want to talk about this but I don't want to hijack the other thread.

Where the Church is growing it is growing because of the Holy Spirit, no doubt. The Holy Spirit does choose to work through people as well, this is true. However, I don't believe that charismatic worship is truly conducive to prayer. Read any of the Saints' descriptions of prayer and you will never find anything like a charismatic worship service described. I honestly believe that charismatic worship services focus very much on the self while claiming to focus on the Spirit. The passions are elevated and the intellect and will are forgotten, which is anything but divine. The proper order of our souls is thus:

Intellect (which leads the)
Will (which leads the)
Passions

After the fall, we became prone to allow the passions to lead the will to lead the intellect (concupiscence). This order is no order at all; it is disorder. This disorder is encouraged and strengthened by charismatic prayer, and there is no true meditation or contemplation. The vocal prayer at charismatic worship services can be good, but often it is simply used to stir the passions. By charismatic prayer, the passions are given a false sense of identity as the primary way to connect with God. This is wrong and misleading, and [b]it makes higher forms of prayer distasteful to individuals accustomed to charismatic prayer[/b]. I can't tell you how many people I know who spent all of high school "on fire" for the Lord because of charismatic prayer, but as they mature and find higher forms of prayer (meditation, contemplation) they find them boring. Unexciting.

I am not denying that the Spirit can give gifts as he pleases. I am denying that he acts primarily through the passions, which is what charismatic prayer is most focused on.

Also, it is not our job to fill the pews. If one form of prayer (and a low one, at that) is attractive to people and is guaranteed to fill the pews, this is no reason to diminish the dignity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Mass is meant not only to be vocal prayer, but meditative and contemplative, and it is structured so that the congregation CAN have times of silence in order to offer itself as a sacrifice to the Lord. The Mass should never be an attempt to arouse the passions, even good ones. The Mass is a sacrifice, and if we structure our intellect and our will in accordance with that then the passions will follow in time. At first they will fail, though, because we are fallen, and in order to come into more perfect union with the Divine we must overcome them. I believe that to use charismatic prayer at Mass is to put an obstacle between oneself and the Dark Night of the Soul which is so necessary for true deification.
[/quote]

Thank you for this!

[CorMaria]

This topic is interesting.

[AccountDeleted]

Father Cantalamessa, preacher to the Holy Father, is an avowed charismatic. He has written some beautiful books about the Holy Spirit. For everyone, there are affinities, and St Ignatius said that the Holy Spirit speaks to us through our affinities.

I am very personally Carmelite in spirituality, but I find it odd that most people who quote St John of the Cross, focus more on his two books (Ascent and Dark Night)that deal with the purification of the soul, than on either the Spiritual Canticle or the Living Flame of Love, which deal with the mystical marriage and the transforming union with God. There is a difference between the purgation of the passions, and the ecstasy of union. All I can say is that the man who wrote the LFofL had some experiences far beyond that of most charismatics. He did not focus on experiential experiences because he did not want people to think that they were the method by which one achieved union, but he did not intend for aridity to be the goal either! This is a pet topic of mine as you can see by my signature And I have never become bored or tired of contemplation, no matter what does or does not happen during prayer. It is all a matter of focus and understanding, not control and suppression.

I don't think we need to fear our human nature, but to let God control it. Personally, I prefer attending a traditional Mass to a charismatic Mass, but can see why a charismatic prayer meeting would be attractive to many. To involve our total human nature in the worship of God does seem as natural as David's wanting to dance for God, but he was also criticized for his exuberance. When I watched the World Youth Day Mass in Sydney Australia on TV, at one point, a group of Aborigines were allowed to dance and play their didgeridoo as a musical accompaniment. We all express our devotion in different ways, but I don't think God is offended. We just need to accept that we are not all the same in our styles of worship.

Anyway, I am very open to those who "rest in the spirit" or have other charismatic experiences through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and as long as they are seen as just that - gifts and not the goal or objective of worship, then there is no reason why we can't simply be grateful to God for allowing some to have such experiences.

Anyway, that's just one person's opinion.....

[Slappo]

[quote name='iheartjp2' date='30 August 2009 - 08:54 PM' timestamp='1251690884' post='1958700']
(4) My friend and I also discussed the word "solemn" today. We're both Latinists and he pointed me to an example: the word [i]solemnis[/i]. [i]Solemnis[/i], from whence we get the English word "solemn" literally means "festive", which I've found is the opposite of current English definitions because of the attitude that many have had in religious observance for centuries which formed the connotation for the word, in my opinion. While you're correct in saying that solemn doesn't mean sombre or sad, it also doesn't necessarily mean reverent (not to say that reverence isn't important, because it definitely is, and you probably won't find a parish more reverent than my own if you decide to visit the Ann Arbor area). Reverence is an internal state of deep respect that can be expressed outwardly. Solemnity (using the current English definition, not the meaning of the very word from which it's derived) is a complete outward state of being and doesn't even require that one be changed internally. As far as the two go, I'd put reverence over solemnity because one requires internal recognition of the gravity of an event while the other could be shown while going through the motions of the same event and frankly, the latter wouldn't matter to God as much as the former.
[/quote]

solemnis, solemne, solemnior -or -us, solemnissimus -a -um ADJ [XXXCO]
solemn, ceremonial, sacred, in accordance w/religion/law; traditional/customary

Doesn't look like festive to me. Solemnity and reverence go hand in hand because sacredness calls upon reverence. Festivity does not.


festus, festa, festum ADJ [XXXAX]
festive, joyous; holiday; feast day; merry; solemn;

Festus can mean solemn, but the theological understanding of the word solemn comes from solemnis, not festus, which means sacred or ceremonial. As you can see, festus and solemnis are not exactly interchangeable.

The solemn high mass doesnt mean the festive high mass, but the sacred high mass.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Slappo' date='07 September 2009 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1252344020' post='1962638']
solemnis, solemne, solemnior -or -us, solemnissimus -a -um ADJ [XXXCO]
solemn, ceremonial, sacred, in accordance w/religion/law; traditional/customary

Doesn't look like festive to me. Solemnity and reverence go hand in hand because sacredness calls upon reverence. Festivity does not.


festus, festa, festum ADJ [XXXAX]
festive, joyous; holiday; feast day; merry; solemn;

Festus can mean solemn, but the theological understanding of the word solemn comes from solemnis, not festus, which means sacred or ceremonial. As you can see, festus and solemnis are not exactly interchangeable.

The solemn high mass doesnt mean the festive high mass, but the sacred high mass.
[/quote]



I don't know which dictionary my friend was using or the one you're using, but in any case, I stand corrected. Thanks, Slappo.