Homosexuality In The Priesthood.

[Didymus]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='28 August 2009 - 11:38 AM' timestamp='1251473883' post='1957177']


Yeah, I understand that point of view. However, on the other hand, would you say that an Eastern Rite priest who is married "cannot fully offer himself up" as much as a Latin Rite priest? Because he doesn't sacrifice a wife or fatherhood either.
[/quote]

An Eastern Rite priest doesn't take a vow of celibacy, I was referring to how SSA would or wouldn't impact the vow of celibacy..

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='29 August 2009 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1251605774' post='1958183']
It'd be great to get back on topic as to why or why not homosexuals should be ordained. It's interesting that the poll has ten each way and three in the middle.
[/quote]
To get back to the topic: I stand by what I said earlier, any man who self-identifies as "homosexual" should not be allowed to enter seminary, and the Church should be extremely cautious when dealing with any man who suffers from SSA -- whether or not he self-identifies as "homosexual" or "gay" -- and should, as a norm, refuse to ordain such a man.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 August 2009 - 12:23 AM' timestamp='1251606236' post='1958189']
To get back to the topic: I stand by what I said earlier, any man who self-identifies as "homosexual" should not be allowed to enter seminary, and the Church should be extremely cautious when dealing with any man who suffers from SSA -- whether or not he self-identifies as "homosexual" or "gay" -- and should, as a norm, refuse to ordain such a man.
[/quote]
Okay, cool. And why do you believe that the norm should be to refuse ordination to a man that suffers from SSA but doesn't identify himself as homosexual.

Do you believe that there is something about the SSA attraction that would get in the way of him exercising his ministry?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='29 August 2009 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1251606471' post='1958190']
Okay, cool. And why do you believe that the norm should be to refuse ordination to a man that suffers from SSA but doesn't identify himself as homosexual.

Do you believe that there is something about the SSA attraction that would get in the way of him exercising his ministry?
[/quote]
It is an impediment to the proper exercise of orders, because -- as the Vatican has taught consistently -- although SSA is not a sin ". . . it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder" [[i]Homosexualitatis Problema[/i], no. 3], and like other psychical disorders it is -- or at least it should be (as it was held to be prior to Vatican II) -- an impediment to ordination [see CIC, Book IV, Part I, Title VI, chapter 2, art. 3].

Edited August 30, 2009 by Apotheoun

[OraProMe]

But SSA attraction doesn't have the same symptoms or effects as other psychological disorders. Infact the only "symptom" is has is being attracted to the same sex.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='29 August 2009 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1251607822' post='1958195']
But SSA attraction doesn't have the same symptoms or effects as other psychological disorders. Infact the only "symptom" is has is being attracted to the same sex.
[/quote]
And that is a massive symptom indeed, since it involves an attraction to a behavior that is "an intrinsic moral evil."

No one has a right to be a priest, and the Church must not be lax in establishing the norms for ordination.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Apotheoun

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 August 2009 - 12:55 AM' timestamp='1251608109' post='1958196']
And that is a massive symptom indeed, since it involves an attraction to a behavior that is "an intrinsic moral evil."
[/quote]
Right, but it is not a sin. Is it? I can understand psychological illnesses being an impediment because they influence how effectively the priest can conduct his ministry. That is not the case with SSA. I'm sure that the Church doesn't prohibit men with a mental illness from the priesthood solely because they have a mental illness, but because their mental illness will make it hard for them to effectively fulfill their priestly duties. For example a man with a history of severe depression is likely to be withdrawn, antisocial and even nihilistic. If that's the case he obviously isn't suitable for community life or providing solace and counselling to those in his care.

Would you please mind providing a few examples of how SSA would cause similar problems? I'm still a little confused

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='29 August 2009 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1251608917' post='1958199']
Right, but it is not a sin. Is it? I can understand psychological illnesses being an impediment because they influence how effectively the priest can conduct his ministry. That is not the case with SSA. I'm sure that the Church doesn't prohibit men with a mental illness from the priesthood solely because they have a mental illness, but because their mental illness will make it hard for them to effectively fulfill their priestly duties. For example a man with a history of severe depression is likely to be withdrawn, antisocial and even nihilistic. If that's the case he obviously isn't suitable for community life or providing solace and counselling to those in his care.

Would you please mind providing a few examples of how SSA would cause similar problems? I'm still a little confused
[/quote]
I believe that I have said at least once -- perhaps twice or more often -- in this thread, that the homosexual inclination is not itself a sin, but it is an objectively disordered desire, and so it cannot be seen as "benign" [See CDF Instruction [i]Homosexualitatis Problema[/i], no. 3]. As far as examples of situations in which this condition could be an impediment to the exercise of orders, I do not believe that I need to provide hypothetical cases that prove my position to be the traditional viewpoint of the Catholic Church; rather, I would simply express my agreement with the Vatican document related to this subject, and issued back in 1992, which said that any jobs that involve interaction with children would be inappropriate for people suffering from this condition. Again, any type of desire that is ordered toward an intrinsically evil behavior should be taken into account when it comes to determining who is fit to receive sacred ordination.

In the final analysis, I simply believe that the Church's traditional position -- as it was expressed in the document entitled "Careful Selection and Training of Candidates for the States of Perfection and Sacred Orders," and which was approved by Pope John XXIII in 1961 -- should be reaffirmed, because it reflects the wisdom of the Church on this issue down through the ages.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Apotheoun

[cappie]

Original question:

Should homosexuals who have maintained chastity for a substantial period of time be banned from the seminary?

Answer:

CONGREGATION FOR CATHOLIC EDUCATION

Instruction
Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations
with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies
in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html[/url]

2. Homosexuality and the Ordained Ministry

From the time of the Second Vatican Council until today, various Documents of the Magisterium, and especially the Catechism of the Catholic Church, have confirmed the teaching of the Church on homosexuality. The Catechism distinguishes between homosexual acts and homosexual tendencies.

Regarding acts, it teaches that Sacred Scripture presents them as grave sins. The Tradition has constantly considered them as intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law. Consequently, under no circumstance can they be approved.

Deep-seated homosexual tendencies, which are found in a number of men and women, are also objectively disordered and, for those same people, often constitute a trial. Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. They are called to fulfil God's will in their lives and to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter[8].

In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], [b]cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture"[10].

Such persons, in fact, find themselves in a situation that gravely hinders them from relating correctly to men and women. One must in no way overlook the negative consequences that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies.[/b]

Different, however, would be the case in which one were dealing with homosexual tendencies that were only the expression of a transitory problem - for example, that of an adolescence not yet superseded. Nevertheless, such tendencies must be clearly overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 August 2009 - 01:20 AM' timestamp='1251609637' post='1958202']
I believe that I have said at least once -- perhaps twice or more often -- in this thread, that the homosexual inclination is not itself a sin, but it is an objectively disordered desire, and so it cannot be seen as "benign" [See CDF Instruction [i]Homosexualitatis Problema[/i], no. 3]. As far as examples of situations in which this condition could be an impediment to the exercise of orders, [b]I do not believe that I need to provide hypothetical cases that prove my position [/b]to be the traditional viewpoint of the Catholic Church; rather, I would simply express my agreement with the Vatican document related to this subject, and issued back in 1992, which said that any jobs that involve interaction with children would be inappropriate for people suffering from this condition. Again, any type of desire that is ordered toward an intrinsically evil behavior should be taken into account when it comes to determining who is fit to receive sacred ordination.

In the final analysis, I simply believe that the Church's traditional position -- as it was expressed in the document entitled "Careful Selection and Training of Candidates for the States of Perfection and Sacred Orders," and which was approved by Pope John XXIII in 1961 -- should be reaffirmed, because it reflects the wisdom of the Church on this issue down through the ages.
[/quote]

Thanks. That told me all I need to know. There is no comparison between SSA and other mental illnesses when it comes to effectively carrying out priestly duties.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='cappie' date='30 August 2009 - 01:48 AM' timestamp='1251611283' post='1958207']

In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], [b]cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture"[10].

Such persons, in fact, find themselves in a situation that gravely hinders them from relating correctly to men and women. One must in no way overlook the negative consequences that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies.[/b]

Different, however, would be the case in which one were dealing with homosexual tendencies that were only the expression of a transitory problem - for example, that of an adolescence not yet superseded. Nevertheless, such tendencies must be clearly overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate.
[/quote]

Thanks Father! Of course it would be inappropriate for a man who supports the gay culture or practise homosexuality. I wonder what "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" means though. Someone who struggles to maintain celibacy and a pure mind or someone who can't "turn" heterosexual?

hmmm

Edited August 30, 2009 by OraProMe

[goldenchild17]

I think Fr. Cappie presented the necessary document for this discussion and seems sufficient to me.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='30 August 2009 - 01:33 AM' timestamp='1251613996' post='1958218']
Thanks Father! Of course it would be inappropriate for a man who supports the gay culture or practise homosexuality. I wonder what "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" means though. Someone who struggles to maintain celibacy and a pure mind or someone who can't "turn" heterosexual.

hmmm
[/quote]

That is a good question. Don't know what the answer is, though I think the point is that the Church is trying to be careful, extra-vigilant in this regard.

[OraProMe]

I'd also be interested in knowing how SSA "gravely hinders them from relating correctly to men and women." It's an interesting statement and the document doesn't seem to provide any rationale for such a broad generalization.

[cappie]

Cardinal Zenon Grocholewski, from the Congregation for Catholic Education issuing the document said:

One lingering doubt about the homosexuality document was whether a homosexually oriented man who was nevertheless committed to celibacy could be ordained a priest. At Thursday’s press conference, Cardinal Grocholewski gave a rather forceful “no,” and here are the essential parts of his answer:

“The candidate does not necessarily have to practice homosexuality (to be excluded.) He can even be without sin. But if he has this deeply seated tendency, he cannot be admitted to priestly ministry precisely because of the nature of the priesthood, in which a spiritual paternity is carried out. Here we are not talking about whether he commits sins, but whether this deeply rooted tendency remains.”

Cardinal Grocholewski was then asked why, if a man with strong heterosexual tendencies but who is celibate can be ordained, the same could not be true of a man with homosexual tendencies? His answer:

“Because it’s not simply a question of observing celibacy as such. In this case, it would be a heterosexual tendency, a normal tendency. In a certain sense, when we ask why Christ reserved the priesthood to men, we speak of this spiritual paternity, and maintain that homosexuality is a type of deviation, a type of irregularity, as explained in two documents of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Therefore it is a type of wound in the exercise of the priesthood, in forming relations with others. And precisely for this reason we say that something isn’t right in the psyche of such a man. We don’t simply talk about the ability to abstain from these kinds of relations.”

Commenting on the 2005 document’s distinction between “deep-seated” and “fleeting” tendencies to homosexuality, the cardinal said fleeting tendencies could be overcome. He said there were two schools of thought on this, however:

“Today, some people say homosexuality is so `structured’ that it cannot be cured. On the other hand, many others say today that homosexuality can be cured, and we even have examples of this that have been presented. So we don’t exclude the possibility of a certain cure, but there is also needed a degree of certainty that someone’s psyche has been put right, because very often this homosexual tendency, as we know, begins to emerge later.”

Filed under: CNS, Vatican