Homosexuality In The Priesthood.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 August 2009 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1251559729' post='1957819']
Facing a problem honestly is one thing, but self-identifying as that very problem, as if it is a positive characteristic, is not helpful in the end. Christian faith is about overcoming the disordered passions, and not about embracing them as a self-identifying characteristic.
[/quote]

The term for someone who is attracted to a member of the same sex is "homosexual". Acknowledging that you're attracted to the same sex, and thus a homosexual doesn't neccesarily mean they're embracing it as a "self-identifying characteristic" or saying it's a positive thing.

I really don't see your logic or what you're getting at. The Catholic Church itself uses the term homosexual and same sex attraction and I'm sure this doesn't mean they believe it's a "positive characteristic" so I have no idea why you have a problem with individuals who are homosexuals refering to themselves as....homosexuals. When discussing their sexuality what would you rather they say if not "I'm homosexual"?

Edited August 29, 2009 by OraProMe

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='29 August 2009 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1251560090' post='1957824']
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt because I'm sure you've never experienced this problem, but let me speak from experience and tell you that it's not as simple as saying "oh croutons, I have a disordered passion. oh well." It's not so much "self-identifying," but rather, admitting something that's not just going to go away.

You can't defeat something if you don't know what you're trying to defeat. It's a level of honesty with oneself.
[/quote]
Every person suffers from disordered passions of some type, and as a consequence must always resist the temptation to make those desires a self-defining characteristic of his personality. By grace a Christian is given the power to overcome his wounded existence.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='29 August 2009 - 11:38 AM' timestamp='1251560317' post='1957825']
It's hard to say that, really. On the microscopic level, everything is 'physical' in some way. In schizophrenia, I believe, certain neurotransmitters are produced in excess quantities. So far we don't know if that happens RE: SSA, but on the other hand, we don't know a lot about it anyway. For all we know there might actually be something quantifiable going on, say in the DNA, and we just don't see it at this point.
[/quote]

Yes, well, from what I've seen, mental illness has a physical characteristic that can be seen on CAT scans. I've seen the effects that certain images or sounds have on the brain of a "gay" person vs. that of a straight person, though they're not really the same thing as a constant physical trait.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='29 August 2009 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1251560090' post='1957824']
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt because I'm sure you've never experienced this problem, but let me speak from experience and tell you that it's not as simple as saying "oh croutons, I have a disordered passion. oh well." It's not so much "self-identifying," but rather, admitting something that's not just going to go away.

You can't defeat something if you don't know what you're trying to defeat. It's a level of honesty with oneself.
[/quote]

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 August 2009 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1251560552' post='1957828']
Every person suffers from disordered passions of some type, and as a consequence must always resist the temptation to make those desires a self-defining characteristic of his personality. By grace a Christian is given the power to overcome his wounded existence.
[/quote]

How do you suggest they describe their sexuality then if you find the terms "homosexual" or "same sex attraction" objectionable?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='iheartjp2' date='29 August 2009 - 09:43 AM' timestamp='1251560594' post='1957829']
Yes, well, from what I've seen, mental illness has a physical characteristic that can be seen on CAT scans. I've seen the effects that certain images or sounds have on the brain of a "gay" person vs. that of a straight person, though they're not really the same thing as a constant physical trait.
[/quote]
Not all. In fact not many if I understand correctly. Depression, for instance (major clinical depression) involves a problem with dopamine receptors. This can't be diagnosed in any way except through DSM criteria. Same goes for pretty much all personality disorders.
It's just that I don't think a 'physical' or 'not physical' tag can be used consistently in determining very much at all when it comes to disorders.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='29 August 2009 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1251560970' post='1957838']
Not all. In fact not many if I understand correctly. Depression, for instance (major clinical depression) involves a problem with dopamine receptors. This can't be diagnosed in any way except through DSM criteria. Same goes for pretty much all personality disorders.
It's just that I don't think a 'physical' or 'not physical' tag can be used consistently in determining very much at all when it comes to disorders.
[/quote]

All right, makes sense.

Though a huge distinction between a mental illness and SSA is that one would most likely require medication to keep it under control. The other would require self-control. To imply that homosexuals automatically have a harder time controlling their actions than straight guys by lumping them in with the mentally ill or disordered isn't a fair distinction IMO.

Edited August 29, 2009 by iheartjp2

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='29 August 2009 - 09:42 AM' timestamp='1251560520' post='1957826']
The term for someone who is attracted to a member of the same sex is "homosexual". Acknowledging that you're attracted to the same sex, and thus a homosexual doesn't neccesarily mean they're embracing it as a "self-identifying characteristic" or saying it's a positive thing.
[/quote]
No one is ontologically a "homosexual", nor is a person ontologically a "kleptomaniac", nor can a person be identified with any other disordered condition arising from the ancestral sin.

That said, a man should not be allowed to enter seminary if he self-identifies as a "homosexual," which is not to be confused with merely saying that one is afflicted with disordered sexual desires. Nevertheless, even in the latter case, i.e., of one who does not self-identify as "homosexual", but who only says that he suffers from homosexual desires, the Church should be cautious about admitting such a man into the seminary, because the all male nature of the priesthood may not be a good environment for him.

[Nihil Obstat]

Back to the topic at hand.

Ora, what do you think are acceptable reasons for a man to be precluded from entering the priesthood? Should schizophrenia be one of them, even if the man believes he is able to stay on his medication?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 August 2009 - 11:53 AM' timestamp='1251561211' post='1957842']
No one is ontologically a "homosexual", nor is a person ontologically a "kleptomaniac", nor can a person be identified with any other disordered condition arising from the ancestral sin.

That said, a man should not be allowed to enter seminary if he self-identifies as a "homosexual," which is not to be confused with merely saying that one is afflicted with disordered sexual desires. Nevertheless, even in the latter case, i.e., of one who does not self-identify as "homosexual", but who only says that he suffers from homosexual desires, the Church should be cautious about admitting such a man into the seminary, because the all male nature of the priesthood may not be a good environment for him.
[/quote]

Okay, I think it's being a bit neurotic because "one who suffers from homosexual desires" is, by definition, a homosexual. But I agree with the bit about being cautious.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='29 August 2009 - 09:45 AM' timestamp='1251560729' post='1957833']
How do you suggest they describe their sexuality then if you find the terms "homosexual" or "same sex attraction" objectionable?
[/quote]
A man should simply say that he suffers from a disordered condition, which he is attempting -- by God's grace -- to overcome, but he should never self-identify as a particular disordered condition.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='29 August 2009 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1251561446' post='1957846']
Okay, I think it's being a bit neurotic because "one who suffers from homosexual desires" is, by definition, a homosexual. But I agree with the bit about being cautious.
[/quote]
No, a man is not to be equated with a disorder desire (homosexual or any other).

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 August 2009 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1251561211' post='1957842']
Nevertheless, even in the latter case, i.e., of one who does not self-identify as "homosexual", but who only says that he suffers from homosexual desires, the Church should be cautious about admitting such a man into the seminary, because the all male nature of the priesthood may not be a good environment for him.
[/quote]
I love that argument. "Well, if a man suffers from SSA, he must not be able to live around other guys."

I have never in my life felt a disordered sexual attraction to either the males or females I have lived with or spent the majority of my time with.

Is it an occasion to sin? Maybe. Depends on the person. But I take offense to the characterization that it is absolutely unacceptable in all cases.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='29 August 2009 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1251561293' post='1957844']
Back to the topic at hand.

Ora, what do you think are acceptable reasons for a man to be precluded from entering the priesthood? [/quote]

I think anything that would prevent a man from effectively carrying out his priestly ministry. Something like a physical disability, (really) advanced age, denial of Catholic teaching etc.

[i]Should schizophrenia be one of them, even if the man believes he is able to stay on his medication?[/i]
Honestly, I haven't looked at it enough to come up with a worthwhile opinion.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='29 August 2009 - 02:47 AM' timestamp='1251528462' post='1957674']
But we're not talking about priests who commit sodomy. If you want to deny someone ordination because "they might commit sodomy" then with that logic you could deny someone ordination because "they might run off with a woman" or "they might leave the priesthood". There are a whole bunch of "mights" with every single person.
[/quote]

We are talking about men who define themselves as "homosexuals" joining the priesthood. Holy Scripture written by Saints under the supervision of the Holy Spirit refers to "homosexuals" as sodomites, so I use the same term. A man that defines himself as a "homosexual" should not be a priest. Similar to a man that defines himself as a thief should not work at the US Mint.

Chaste Sodomites still present a danger, because they one suffer from SSA, and two define themselves as
"homosexual." And it will not be pleasant to hear, but sodomites are in great part to blame for the sexual abuse scandal that has effected the Church. Studies have show that most of the abuses were on adolescent males, committed by priest who suffered from SSA. That's a problem no one wants to hear, and no one wants to talk about. But like it or not it is a real problem that has to be dealt with. Allowing sodomites to be priest is highly dangerous and risky.