Mandatory Schooling: Good Or Bad?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' date='26 August 2009 - 10:38 AM' timestamp='1251297484' post='1956227']
Before I add my rant - what are the higher education statistics in the USA? The Netherlands has about 20% Bachelors (be they applied or university - there's a difference here) and 10% masters/doctorate.
[/quote]
[quote name='Terra Firma' date='26 August 2009 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1251297165' post='1956225']
Census stats show that just over 50 percent of Americans have some college, 25 percent have finished bachelors degrees, and 9 percent have grad degrees.
[/quote]


Rant away!

[homeschoolmom]

[Era Might]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='26 August 2009 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1251297165' post='1956225']
I'm confused about what you mean by "mandatory schooling." And, I suppose, what you mean by society.[/quote]
You sum up what I mean by "mandatory schooling" here:

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='26 August 2009 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1251297165' post='1956225']All the major jobs I have held since graduating from college have required a college degree, and I couldn't have gotten them without my degree.[/quote]
Before college, of course, schooling is literally mandatory for twelve years. But beyond that, schooling is practically mandatory in society. I use the word "society" because so-called "higher education" is not mandated by the government or any authority. It is mandated by the expectations and standards that society has established. As you said, you "couldn't have gotten [those jobs] without [your] degree." Society makes schooling necessary. And the problem is deeper than just getting a job. Those who have gone through schooling are seen more positively than those who have not gone through schooling. We consider it a mark of shame that someone doesn't graduate high school. We see schooling as a mark of prestige. We equate schooling with learning. We equate going to school with being smart. To even question the idea that mandatory schooling is a good thing, is practically secular blasphemy. Society will look favorably on a debate about how best to fund and reform schools. But to advocate that what is needed is not a reform, but a complete abolition of mandatory schooling, would probably be seen as a crazy proposal. Society is so dependent on the institution of schooling, that we believe we cannot live without it. We believe that without the institution of schooling, no one would learn. This is what I mean by "mandatory schooling." We have lost our freedom and independence as human beings, and have become slaves to institutions. We don't allow people to learn on their own. They must enter an institution. They must be approved by an institution. We say that the poor need more schooling. But what happens when the poor fail in school? Society proposes schooling as their salvation, and when mandatory schooling fails them, society has no other savior to offer them. We tell the poor that the answer to their failure in school is more schooling, better schooling, that the answer is to spend more money on institutions. So we set the poor on a chase for an illusion that never ends. We set more schooling, more institutions before them, and lead them to believe that to solve their problems, they need to do better in the institutions. This keeps the institutions growing and growing and growing, and the grip of institutions on society becomes even firmer.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Era Might' date='26 August 2009 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1251301719' post='1956264']

Before college, of course, schooling is literally mandatory for twelve years. [/quote]

Actually, this is not true and it varies by state. In Minnesota, for example, the state law requires children to attend school (gov't, private or home) between the ages of 7 and 16. So, really, that's only 9 years.

Not everyone realizes that.

[Era Might]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='26 August 2009 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1251302071' post='1956270']
Actually, this is not true and it varies by state. In Minnesota, for example, the state law requires children to attend school (gov't, private or home) between the ages of 7 and 16. So, really, that's only 9 years.

Not everyone realizes that.
[/quote]
Yes, but you are required to attend school unless you drop out. So it is still mandatory, though at a certain age, you have the option of being excused from the obligation.

But by dropping out of school, society brands you as a failure. We view high school dropouts who later have success as remarkable stories, as though it's some amazing feat to succeed without the help of an institution.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Era Might' date='26 August 2009 - 12:01 PM' timestamp='1251302487' post='1956272']
Yes, but you are required to attend school unless you drop out. So it is still mandatory, though at a certain age, you have the option of being excused from the obligation.

But by dropping out of school, society brands you as a failure. We view high school dropouts who later have success as remarkable stories, as though it's some amazing feat to succeed without the help of an institution.
[/quote]
Even that is not completely true. Most (if not all) states recognize that parents who want to avoid the institutionalized educational system. We call that "homeschooling." An increasing number of parents are choosing this option.

Regarding dropping out: There are a variety of reasons that people drop out of school, but I think it's reasonable that employers (and others) see this as a red flag. I think it creates a "rebuttable presumption" that a person lacks the proper motivation or character level to tough out the difficulties of schooling.

I think a responsible employer is looking for employees who are going to stick around for a while and who can handle the rigors of a job -- consistently doing good work, showing up on time, being conscientious about how s/he represents the company, etc. If it were me, I would want to know why the dropout happened in the first place, and what the person has done since leaving school. Someone who quit because a better opportunity came along is a far different prospect than someone who quit to pursue a life of delinquency. I think the same can be said for college. Someone who takes a couple years off to work so it is more affordable is in a different boat than someone who gave up in the middle of the semester and doesn't care about work quality, etc.

I think it is not so much going to school that is the issue but how you conducted yourself in whatever you chose to do. Experience does count, and character; school is just one way of demonstrating those things, and I think people are willing to recognize that there are other ways as well.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Terra Firma

[Era Might]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='26 August 2009 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1251304142' post='1956291']Regarding dropping out: There are a variety of reasons that people drop out of school, but I think it's reasonable that employers (and others) see this as a red flag. I think it creates a "rebuttable presumption" that a person lacks the proper motivation or character level to tough out the difficulties of schooling.[/quote]
Personally, I'm inclined to see it as a good sign that a student is unmotivated. The schooling system is pretty unmotivating. What is the motivation of schooling? That the student will receive a piece of paper in four years, which tells other people that the student was a good product of the institution. Maybe lack of motivation is a sign that the student has some life left inside that tells him that he does not have to live through an institution.

The difficulties of schooling indeed. If I ever write a book on this topic, I think I'll call it "the difficulties of schooling." It is rather difficult to find motivation when your life is controlled by institutions.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Era Might' date='26 August 2009 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1251305730' post='1956307']
Personally, I'm inclined to see it as a good sign that a student is unmotivated. The schooling system is pretty unmotivating. What is the motivation of schooling? That the student will receive a piece of paper in four years, which tells other people that the student was a good product of the institution. Maybe lack of motivation is a sign that the student has some life left inside that tells him that life is not about institutions.

The difficulties of schooling indeed. If I ever write a book on this topic, I think I'll call it "the difficulties of schooling." It is rather difficult to find motivation when your life is in the hands of an institution.
[/quote]
I suppose your perspective on this is largely dependent on your personal experience, both in the school(s) you've attended and with people who drop out. Personally, school was quite motivating for me. Perhaps I had exceptional teachers and/or peers. I don't know. But I have always appreciated the academic side of school (although the social side has, from time to time, been challenging).

If you are finding school unmotivating, perhaps it is time for you to seek another path in life. But that does not necessarily mean the whole institution is worthless.

[rachael]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='26 August 2009 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1251299765' post='1956250']

[/quote]

[Laudate_Dominum]

This was a great discussion.

[mortify]

Maybe I missed it, but what is the book the original post was referring to? Sounds interesting

[Hassan]

[quote name='Era Might' date='26 August 2009 - 12:01 PM' timestamp='1251302487' post='1956272']

But by dropping out of school, society brands you as a failure. We view high school dropouts who later have success as remarkable stories, as though it's some amazing feat to succeed without the help of an institution.
[/quote]

That's because it is seeing as they have no real training to do anything. The exceptional ones who really hit it big without even a high school degree are extremely, extremely rare. Good schools generally attract the best scholars in their field. Getting a degree in Engineering from MIT is certification that you have a remarkable propensity for mathematics and physics, have succeeded in an environment designed to challenge the very best and brightest in your field, and were trained in your field by the very best of the best in your field.

Sorry, but that is valuable. Your may have all the potential in the world but I need a way to verify that. I can take the risk that you, though a high school drop out, somehow have the discipline and work ethic to put in good work while you're on the clock, have extraordinary intellectual abilities, and have taught yourself a sufficient amount in your field to adequately do your job. Or I can go with the individual with a nice piece of paper which demonstrates to me that he has the work ethnic, the intelligence, and the technical training to do the job.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Hassan' date='28 September 2009 - 04:48 AM' timestamp='1254127703' post='1973631']Or I can go with the individual with a nice piece of paper which demonstrates to me that he has the work ethnic, the intelligence, and the technical training to do the job.
[/quote]
What you're basically saying is that man has been reduced to "a nice piece of paper." We don't care what he says about himself, we only care what a piece of paper says about him.

It's not hard to tell whether someone is qualified for a job. It's not hard to figure out, based just on conversation, whether or not someone knows what they're talking about in a particular field. And as far as work ethic, what does that mean? Just because a person has done enough to satisfy an educational institution's requirements does not prove they have work ethic. It only proves that they did enough work to satisfy the institution.

[Winchester]

Work [i]ethnic[/i]?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Era Might' date='28 September 2009 - 01:07 PM' timestamp='1254157666' post='1973734']
What you're basically saying is that man has been reduced to "a nice piece of paper." We don't care what he says about himself, we only care what a piece of paper says about him.[/QUOTE]

No, I'm saying that the piece of paper certifies, at least theoretically, that the individuals has the attributes I listed (and misspelled). Does that mean that an individual without a college degree or even a high school degree can't have all of those attributes? Absolutely not.

The piece of paper doesn't mean anything dude. The piece of paper is just a piece of paper. What gets an individual more opportunities is the official recognition, by an institution yes, that they are trained to that institutions standards in a particular field. Recon Marines get a quaint little brass badge to wear on their uniforms after finishing their schools (and they are schools, scout sniper school, airborne school, SERE school etcetera) does the badge make them tough? Do we only care what a badge says about them? Could someone without their "schooling" be just as bad? I suppose. The little piece of brass isn't what gets them respect. It's what the badge represents. That they have received training in a particular skill set to the standards of the institution of the USMC and are therefore qualified to do a certain set of jobs most individuals are not. A piece of paper from MIT is just a sheet of paper. The fact that the individual applying for the job has been certified by one of the most respected and prestigious scientific institutions in the world as being trained in a particular skill set and trained to that institutions standards by the most respected and qualified individuals in that field, however, is worth a lot.

[QUOTE]It's not hard to tell whether someone is qualified for a job. It's not hard to figure out, based just on conversation, whether or not someone knows what they're talking about in a particular field.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying it's logically impossible for an individual to accumulate throughout the course of their "real world experience" the same level of competence and education in chemical engineering as an MIT graduate, but it sure isn't common.

My great grandfather held a job that was supposed require a degree to hold during the great depression. He lied, claimed he had been to college, and managed to keep that up until he didn't need the job. It depends on what field you're talking about.

[QUOTE]And as far as work ethic, what does that mean? Just because a person has done enough to satisfy an educational institution's requirements does not prove they have work ethic. It only proves that they did enough work to satisfy the institution.
[/quote]


It does not prove it, however it provides powerful evidence. Everyone gets bored at school, everyone gets sick of it. One person says and gets their worthless piece of paper, one person drops out because they're tired of it and want to feel more alive. Who are you going to bet on? Who seems more likely to stick with the job and be a dependable employee and who seems more likely to decide one day that they don't feel sufficiently "alive" doing this work and are quitting?