thessalonian Posted August 26, 2009 Author Share Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='25 August 2009 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1251208759' post='1956069'] To play devil's advocate, a Calvinist would respond by asking, which is the greater injustice: that a sinner receives their just punishment, or that the Son of God died a sinner's death? [/quote] Why does it always have to be either or? Can the Calvinist not see the beauty of the script that God played out. The greatest injustice bringing about the greatest mercy? Why not just stand in awe of God's mercy rather than focus on the injustice. But of course there is justice. Would the Calvinist say that those involved in the injustice all went to heaven because Jesus prayed "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"? Edited August 26, 2009 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) [quote name='thessalonian' date='26 August 2009 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1251304264' post='1956293'] Don't ya know your bible man. Don't ya have a search tool? 1Tim.2 1. [4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1Tim.2 [/quote] It sounded familiar, but a lot of things sound familiar. It wasn't clear if you were quoting a Calvinist theologian, Scripture, or omething else. [quote name='thessalonian' date='26 August 2009 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1251304838' post='1956298'] Why does it always have to be either or? Can the Calvinist not see the beauty of the script that God played out. The greatest injustice bringing about the greatest mercy? Why not just stand in awe of God's mercy rather than focus on the injustice. But of course there is justice. Would the Calvinist say that those involved in the injustice all went to heaven because Jesus prayed "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"? [/quote] Yes, of course the Calvinist believer sees that. This is the point I was getting at: the only real injustice is the Crucifixion, and through it God purchases the justification of elected sinners purely by his grace. How can we argue with God, who is perfect in justice and mercy, over who is chosen or not chosen for an eternal reward? The men who personally crucified and insulted Christ were forgiven for those sins, because that was Jesus' prayer. On that verse alone you can't determine that they went to heaven. Edited August 26, 2009 by LouisvilleFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='26 August 2009 - 11:03 AM' timestamp='1251306222' post='1956317'] The men who personally crucified and insulted Christ were forgiven for those sins, because that was Jesus' prayer. On that verse alone you can't determine that they went to heaven. [/quote] For forgiveness to have effect it must be applied, and application requires not only the action of the one doing the forgiving but the repentance of the one being forgiven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 26, 2009 Author Share Posted August 26, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 August 2009 - 02:01 PM' timestamp='1251309712' post='1956377'] For forgiveness to have effect it must be applied, and application requires not only the action of the one doing the forgiving but the repentance of the one being forgiven. [/quote] Yes...... Jesus statement only showed that forgiveness was there for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Not sure why this discussion is so deep, but for my 2 cents, I LOVE Calvin! and Hobbes too! especially the strips with the snowmen - what a hoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 August 2009 - 03:01 PM' timestamp='1251309712' post='1956377'] For forgiveness to have effect it must be applied, and application requires not only the action of the one doing the forgiving but the repentance of the one being forgiven. [/quote] What about the words, "for they know not what they do"? How can repentance be required in cases of ignorance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='28 August 2009 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1251477215' post='1957218'] What about the words, "for they know not what they do"? How can repentance be required in cases of ignorance? [/quote] He expressed forgiveness, which is what we all must do, but for it to be effective repentance is required. Calvin failed to properly grasp the nature of the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice as opposed to its efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Only invincible ignorance can lessen (but not necessarily remove) culpability, but one must be careful not to dogmatically turn invincible ignorance into a means of salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormstopper Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 [quote name='thessalonian' date='24 August 2009 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1251141228' post='1955632'] That god is a monster. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/devil_suprised.gif[/img] [/quote] Unfortunately, Thessa, you are calling the God of the Bible a monster. "Unto you therefore who believe, He he precious....[but] to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient, whereunto also THEY WERE APPOINTED". (1 Pet 2:7-8). "To you is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, BUT TO THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN" (Matt 13:11). It is apparently incomprehensible to you that God opens the eyes of some, but purposely closes the eyes of others.... but the Bible clearly teaches this in far too many places to list here. We MUST be satisfied that He has His own special reasons for this: "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight" (Matt 11:26). I suggest you get a hold of James White's, "The Potter's Freedom". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormstopper Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 August 2009 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1251309712' post='1956377'] For forgiveness to have effect it must be applied, and application requires not only the action of the one doing the forgiving but the repentance of the one being forgiven. [/quote] Wrong! Your mind simply cannot grasp the pervasiveness of the sovereignty of God, who is the one in fact, who GRANTS REPENTANCE... by opening the closed mind, as in, "Lydia...whose heart the Lord OPENED, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of by Paul.". "Then hath God also to the Gentiles GRANTED REPENTANCE unto life." (Ax 11:10). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 (edited) Hey, look, Storm's back! And by the way, Calvinism is a heresy Edited September 18, 2009 by Selah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 [quote name='Stormstopper' date='18 September 2009 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1253290766' post='1968617'] Unfortunately, Thessa, you are calling the God of the Bible a monster. "Unto you therefore who believe, He he precious....[but] to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient, whereunto also THEY WERE APPOINTED". (1 Pet 2:7-8). "To you is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, BUT TO THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN" (Matt 13:11). It is apparently incomprehensible to you that God opens the eyes of some, but purposely closes the eyes of others.... but the Bible clearly teaches this in far too many places to list here. We MUST be satisfied that He has His own special reasons for this: "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight" (Matt 11:26). I suggest you get a hold of James White's, "The Potter's Freedom". [/quote] Storm, where your explanation is lacking is this. Irresistable grace. Yes God opens the eyes of some. Amen, their eyes are opened because of him!!! Totally. But God does give grace to ALL sufficient to open their eyes and yet they reject some or all of that grace. They don't recognize him as precious as you have stated. The God of the Bible is not a monster who "desires that all men be saved" but then sits by the edge of the water with the abilities of the best olympic swimmer containing a full set of life saving gear, and lets someone ten feet out drown. Your rejection of free will is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 [quote name='Stormstopper' date='18 September 2009 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1253290766' post='1968617'] Unfortunately, Thessa, you are calling the God of the Bible a monster. "Unto you therefore who believe, He he precious....[but] to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient, whereunto also THEY WERE APPOINTED". (1 Pet 2:7-8). "To you is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, BUT TO THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN" (Matt 13:11). It is apparently incomprehensible to you that God opens the eyes of some, but purposely closes the eyes of others.... but the Bible clearly teaches this in far too many places to list here. We MUST be satisfied that He has His own special reasons for this: "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight" (Matt 11:26). I suggest you get a hold of James White's, "The Potter's Freedom". [/quote] I love James White. His very attitude and demeanor exude the monster god that he believes in. If I don't have to direct any money his way I will definitely look in to this book of fallacious arguements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 [quote name='Stormstopper' date='18 September 2009 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1253291341' post='1968629'] Wrong! Your mind simply cannot grasp the pervasiveness of the sovereignty of God, who is the one in fact, who GRANTS REPENTANCE... by opening the closed mind, as in, "Lydia...whose heart the Lord OPENED, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of by Paul.". "Then hath God also to the Gentiles GRANTED REPENTANCE unto life." (Ax 11:10). [/quote] That God gave grace sufficient to open one person's mind and it opened is in no way indicated that God gave no grace to another sufficient for them to respond and they did not. The sun shines on the good and the bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) [quote]Unfortunately, Thessa, you are calling the God of the Bible a monster. "[/quote] No, he was calling the god of Calvin's imagination a monster. And I have no problem agreeing with him or even saying that the world would be better off without this disgusting doctrine. It messed me up when I was a teen and I've watched it turn people into hateful shrews. The fact that anyone could worship a god like that still baffles me to this day. But, when you decide to hold your own interpretation of the Bible as the truth, I guess you can come up with all kinds of heresies. I left that terrible doctrine behind and have no interest in Calvin or his "god". [quote]You forgot to mention that Calvin also believed that God positively wills -- by an eternal decree -- [b]the damnation of some men[/b].[/quote] Need I say more? Edited October 1, 2009 by Selah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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