Sojourner Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 [quote name='thessalonian' date='24 August 2009 - 01:59 PM' timestamp='1251136779' post='1955605'] No, I think you misunderstand. I am not speaking from the perspective of the saved but the unsaved. The limited atonement aspect of Calvinism. God does nothing to save some. God predestins some to heaven and some he predistins to hell. I know what pelgianism is. I know that there position is that if you are saved it is completely God's doing and not any of you. My motivation for posting is listening to James White this morning. I don't think I misrepresent or lie about his views at all. Some are just damned because God damns them. Oh well. Apotheoun gets my drift. [/quote] I see where you are coming from. Your original post was a bit unclear as to where you were going. To me at least. My bad. Even this statement, though, is a bit misleading in stating Calvin's understanding of predestination. To my knowledge, God's damnation was always tied to man's sinfulness -- it is not as completely arbitrary as your statement seems to indicate ("Some are just damned because God damns them"). It's closely tied to his ideas on total depravity, though, and with other theological constructs. While it seems monstrous when separated out from everything else, the idea of unlimited atonement/predestination does make some sense in the context of the rest of his philophical/theological framework. In my humble opinion, you have to consider the system as a whole before you begin picking it apart, so the flaws become more apparent. As I noted in my earlier posts, one of the overarching problems with Calvin's theology is the fact that he doesn't acknowledge man's cooperation in salvation, and focuses heavily on God's sovereignty. This is the big problem I had with it, and where, as Apo pointed out, Calvin comes close to Islamic views on God. Over and over again, we see God seeking loving relationships with his people, and this is described in many different ways -- parent's love for child, spousal love, and so on. Calvin's God, though, comes across as more of a puppeteer -- and how can that relationship truly be loving? For love to be real, there must be a choice NOT to love, and Calvin seems to ignore that possibility. This was one of the big things that caused me to begin questioning Calvinist theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='24 August 2009 - 04:21 PM' timestamp='1251145285' post='1955659'] Well, let's see... you throw out some random, uncited quote, followed by a critical remark, and no reasoning either way. I don't know what we are supposed to say in response? Calvinists believe that since "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," that eternity in hell is simply justice, plain and simple. That God saves even one person by His grace is pure mercy on His part. That God saves many by His grace is abundant mercy. [/quote] I didn't quote anybody. I stated my opinion. Well let's see. So the thing to do is call someone a liar. Apotheoun got what I was getting at so evidently the fault was not mine. . I understand what and why calvinists believe. So far you haven't changed or added to my understading. That God doesn't save all even though he could makes him a liar without free with and with irresistable grace. "God desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". The God of calvinism does not fit that passage no matter how many he saves. If his grace were irresistable then he is not an infinite God because he does not save all. Then his grace is limited as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) "It's closely tied to his ideas on total depravity, though, and with other theological constructs. While it seems monstrous when separated out from everything else, the idea of unlimited atonement/predestination does make some sense in the context of the rest of his philophical/theological framework." NO it seems monsterous when included with everything else. If God's grace is infinite and "God desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" and his grace is irresistable and yet he limits the atonement such that some get this grace and some he simply leaves to go to hell because of their total depravity which he has the life saving device to throw in the water for them. They cannot possible save themselves and he sits on the edge of the water, knowing how to swim and having life saving equipment and says "you deserve to be in that water and drown". That God is a monster. Last night there was a new story. A man jumped off a bridge here in minneapolis. Maybe you saw it since you live here. The guy was trying to comitt suicide but by the time the rescuers got there he was happy to have been saved according to one of them. It struck me when the reporter went down the road of "well gee this was what he wanted and he was endangering all of you rescuers" the implication was in some way "was it really worth the risk when he wanted to die". THe guy said "this is just what we do". You could see on the man's face a sense of satisfaction no matter what the risk of saving a human life. That feel of the great worth of the human made in the image and likeness of God, though certainly in the sin of despair. If man can have that much desire to save another, and God says he "desires that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth", certainly ALL THE MORE then the only thing that makes sense and does not make a god who is a liar is that we have free will and it is up to us to tap in to that saving grace won for us on the cross. Edited August 24, 2009 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 My view on Calvinism? It's disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanus Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 [quote name='Terra Firma' date='24 August 2009 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1251146704' post='1955670'] Calvin's God, though, comes across as more of a puppeteer -- and how can that relationship truly be loving? For love to be real, there must be a choice NOT to love, and Calvin seems to ignore that possibility. This was one of the big things that caused me to begin questioning Calvinist theology. [/quote] The thing I've always found particularly horrifying about Calvin - or at any rate, the positions of Calvinists I've spoken with - is how they say that the only reason why God saves some is to show forth His mercy, while He allows the rest to be damned to show forth His justice. What I cannot seem to successfully communicate to them is why this horrifies me so - because it means that, on this view, God doesn't even love the saved! He is using them, and that isn't love. And it isn't quite clear to me, either, why it's so important to God to show us these things. After all, knowing them does nothing (on this view) to help us, and it certainly does nothing to help Him! Why, on this view, does God bother to reveal Himself at all? At this point, I always get told that "God's ways are not our ways," and if I can't get it, so much the worse for me. It really is love because God says it is. I usually reply, "He did say, 'My ways are not your ways,' but He also said, 'As far as the heavens are above the earth, so far are my ways above your ways.' At least we know which direction to point - UP! You depict a God who is LESS than a good man instead of more." P.S. I've never been able to grasp how anyone can read the Bible - to say nothing of live life! - and come away with the idea that grace is irresistible! Of course, I'm not proud of learning by experience that it can be resisted, but there you are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 [quote name='thessalonian' date='24 August 2009 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1251154390' post='1955729'] I didn't quote anybody. I stated my opinion. ... "God desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". [/quote] Then what is this? You've quoted this twice now and never provided a reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='25 August 2009 - 07:51 AM' timestamp='1251208318' post='1956062'] Then what is this? You've quoted this twice now and never provided a reference. [/quote] It is a quotation from scripture (1 Timothy 2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 [quote name='Jordanus' date='24 August 2009 - 09:32 PM' timestamp='1251160364' post='1955776'] P.S. I've never been able to grasp how anyone can read the Bible - to say nothing of live life! - and come away with the idea that grace is irresistible! Of course, I'm not proud of learning by experience that it can be resisted, but there you are! [/quote] I've made the same point. The clarification to make is that ultimately -- for one who dies in God's grace -- grace is irresistible in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Grace never overpowers the free will of man; instead, it perfects it, and so I would refrain from using the phrase "irresistible grace" even in relation to the saints in the eschaton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 August 2009 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1251145440' post='1955660'] You forgot to mention that Calvin also believed that God positively wills -- by an eternal decree -- the damnation of some men. [/quote] Well, there are thousands of pages of Calvinism I neglected to mention, least of which would be the other four points of the TULIP, not to mention the fact that nearly all of these five points are debated even among Calvinists. To play devil's advocate, a Calvinist would respond by asking, which is the greater injustice: that a sinner receives their just punishment, or that the Son of God died a sinner's death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='25 August 2009 - 07:59 AM' timestamp='1251208759' post='1956069'] To play devil's advocate, a Calvinist would respond by asking, which is the greater injustice: that a sinner receives their just punishment, or that the Son of God died a sinner's death? [/quote] The Calvinist would say that because the system devised by Calvin is founded upon a false notion that the legal metaphors used in scripture are to be taken literally. The damned by their own free will choices d[color="#000000"]a[/color]mn themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 August 2009 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1251209148' post='1956073'] The Calvinist would say that because the system devised by Calvin is founded upon a false notion that the legal metaphors used in scripture are to be taken literally. The damned by their own free will choices d[color="#000000"]a[/color]mn themselves. [/quote] And that's justice. The only injustice is that Christ died for the sins of the elect. Yet, if salvation comes from the greatest evil in human history, which was ordained by God, then who are we to argue with the perfectly just damnation of sinners? Edited August 25, 2009 by LouisvilleFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='25 August 2009 - 08:21 AM' timestamp='1251210100' post='1956088'] And that's justice. The only injustice is that Christ died for the sins of the elect. Yet, if salvation comes from the greatest evil in human history, which was ordained by God, then who are we to argue with the perfectly just damnation of sinners? [/quote] It is just, but it is a sentence enacted by the individual, and not by God, who continues all the while to love them as His own dear creation. God did not ordain the fall of man, and the "O Happy Fault" idea, which is poetic hyperbole, is not accepted as literal in the Eastern tradition, because of its Manichaean overtones. Edited August 25, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 26, 2009 Author Share Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='25 August 2009 - 09:51 AM' timestamp='1251208318' post='1956062'] Then what is this? You've quoted this twice now and never provided a reference. [/quote] Don't ya know your bible man. Don't ya have a search tool? 1Tim.2 1. [4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1Tim.2 Edited August 26, 2009 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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