thessalonian Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 He sends people to hell without doing anything about it when he says he "desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". /Gee, I desire that man to be saved who is drowning but I am not going to throw this life saving device out to him. I'll just sit here and wait for him to drown. He'll try save himself of course but can't". This God is a monster. This is sad theology. Any calvinists out there want to tell me different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 [quote name='thessalonian' date='24 August 2009 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1251127130' post='1955556'] He sends people to hell without doing anything about it when he says he "desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". /Gee, I desire that man to be saved who is drowning but I am not going to throw this life saving device out to him. I'll just sit here and wait for him to drown. He'll try save himself of course but can't". This God is a monster. This is sad theology. Any calvinists out there want to tell me different? [/quote] As a former Calvinist, I can tell you that is a complete misrepresentation of Calvinist thought on salvation. It's almost polar opposite of what Calvin taught, actually. Rather than waiting for man to save himself, God is the one doing the entirety of the work. Man is dead in his sins, unable to rescue himself from his sad plight, and Christ comes in providing the only lifeline. The view you've posited is not much different from Pelgianism; Calvin taught the opposite of Pelagianism. Where he's wrong is that we cooperate with God in salvation. It is not a one-sided thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ckoCBtXvU&feature=channel_page[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 [quote name='Terra Firma' date='24 August 2009 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1251134771' post='1955586'] As a former Calvinist, I can tell you that is a complete misrepresentation of Calvinist thought on salvation. It's almost polar opposite of what Calvin taught, actually. Rather than waiting for man to save himself, God is the one doing the entirety of the work. Man is dead in his sins, unable to rescue himself from his sad plight, and Christ comes in providing the only lifeline. The view you've posited is not much different from Pelgianism; Calvin taught the opposite of Pelagianism. Where he's wrong is that we cooperate with God in salvation. It is not a one-sided thing. [/quote] Good luck getting your point across... don't know how many times I've stated in plain English what Calvinists actually believe and the next week the same errors are repeated. The irony is that Calvinism is wrong enough without lying about it. One of my favorite preachers is a Baptist/Calvinist in thessalonian's 'hood. And if I needed any justification for listening to non-Catholic preachers, I learned that Archbishop Chaput listens to a Methodist preacher (among others) in preparing his homilies since the Latin Rite is generally on the same Scripture cycle as most of the mainline Protestant communions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Thessalonian's comment has nothing to do with Pelagianism; instead, he is simply pointing out the end consequence of Calvin's views on double predestination. That said, the primary error of Calvinism is its rejection of synergism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Terra Firma' date='24 August 2009 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1251134771' post='1955586'] As a former Calvinist, I can tell you that is a complete misrepresentation of Calvinist thought on salvation. It's almost polar opposite of what Calvin taught, actually. Rather than waiting for man to save himself, God is the one doing the entirety of the work. Man is dead in his sins, unable to rescue himself from his sad plight, and Christ comes in providing the only lifeline. The view you've posited is not much different from Pelgianism; Calvin taught the opposite of Pelagianism. Where he's wrong is that we cooperate with God in salvation. It is not a one-sided thing. [/quote] No, I think you misunderstand. I am not speaking from the perspective of the saved but the unsaved. The limited atonement aspect of Calvinism. God does nothing to save some. God predestins some to heaven and some he predistins to hell. I know what pelgianism is. I know that there position is that if you are saved it is completely God's doing and not any of you. My motivation for posting is listening to James White this morning. I don't think I misrepresent or lie about his views at all. Some are just damned because God damns them. Oh well. Apotheoun gets my drift. Edited August 24, 2009 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='24 August 2009 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1251135516' post='1955595'] Good luck getting your point across... don't know how many times I've stated in plain English what Calvinists actually believe and the next week the same errors are repeated. The irony is that Calvinism is wrong enough without lying about it. One of my favorite preachers is a Baptist/Calvinist in thessalonian's 'hood. And if I needed any justification for listening to non-Catholic preachers, I learned that Archbishop Chaput listens to a Methodist preacher (among others) in preparing his homilies since the Latin Rite is generally on the same Scripture cycle as most of the mainline Protestant communions. [/quote] Why don't you try to understand someone's post before accusing them of lying. She didn't understand my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 August 2009 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1251135953' post='1955601'] Thessalonian's comment has nothing to do with Pelagianism; instead, he is simply pointing out the end consequence of Calvin's views on double predestination. That said, the primary error of Calvinism is its rejection of synergism. [/quote] I would agree. Actually that is at the root of my problem. Irresistable grace is a cause of the problems I see as well. I think that is the big issue with why they don't understand that God damns noone and there is sufficient grace for all to be saved and then some (i.e. grace is infinitely available through the merits of Christ, man by his will opens himself up to it) Edited August 24, 2009 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) [quote name='thessalonian' date='24 August 2009 - 11:59 AM' timestamp='1251136779' post='1955605'] No, I think you misunderstand. I am not speaking from the perspective of the saved but the unsaved. The limited atonement aspect of Calvinism. God does nothing to save some. God predestins some to heaven and some he predistins to hell. I know what pelgianism is. I know that there position is that if you are saved it is completely God's doing and not any of you. My motivation for posting is listening to James White this morning. I don't think I misrepresent or lie about his views at all. Some are just damned because God damns them. Oh well. Apotheoun gets my drift. [/quote] Thessalonian is correct about Calvin's understanding of predestination. Here is what Calvin himself said on the subject: [size="3"]By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. [[i]Institutes[/i], Book III, Chapter 21, no. 5][/size] Edited August 24, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) That god is a monster. Edited August 24, 2009 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Calvin's understanding of predestination is closer to that held by certain schools in Islam than to historic Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 August 2009 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1251135103' post='1955591'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ckoCBtXvU&feature=channel_page[/media] [/quote] The animation in this is funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='24 August 2009 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1251143653' post='1955644'] The animation in this is funny. [/quote] It is pretty funny. Phatmass should create some little videos through xtranormal.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 [quote name='thessalonian' date='24 August 2009 - 03:03 PM' timestamp='1251137024' post='1955607'] Why don't you try to understand someone's post before accusing them of lying. She didn't understand my point. [/quote] Well, let's see... you throw out some random, uncited quote, followed by a critical remark, and no reasoning either way. I don't know what we are supposed to say in response? Calvinists believe that since "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," that eternity in hell is simply justice, plain and simple. That God saves even one person by His grace is pure mercy on His part. That God saves many by His grace is abundant mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='24 August 2009 - 02:21 PM' timestamp='1251145285' post='1955659'] Calvinists believe that since "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," that eternity in hell is simply justice, plain and simple. That God saves even one person by His grace is pure mercy on His part. That God saves many by His grace is abundant mercy. [/quote] You forgot to mention that Calvin also believed that God positively wills -- by an eternal decree -- the damnation of some men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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