Lutherans Go With Gay Pastors

[Hilde]

This thread can be a little lacking in charity at times. Didn't want to read through it all.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1250965660' post='1954316']
Christian charity, please.
[/quote]

Oh, Selah, you keep rooting for [i]Christian charity[/i]!

On [i]this[/i] forum??


Never!!

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='23 August 2009 - 05:32 PM' timestamp='1251066774' post='1955183']
He is one of the three false Dmitriys, all of whom claimed to be the son of Tsar Ivan the Terrible.
[/quote]

There was no DNA testing in those times.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='jkaands' date='23 August 2009 - 06:31 PM' timestamp='1251066696' post='1955181']
Thank goodness and much for the better!

The point is:
[i]
Why do you care[/i] what the Evangelical Lutherans believe?

[i][b]They[/b] really don't care[/i] what Catholics believe.
[/quote]

I care what Lutherans believe as when they flip-flop on morals such as contraception and homosexuality it shows that they do not hold the full truth. The truth doesn't change.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='jkaands' date='23 August 2009 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1251066696' post='1955181']
[i]
Why do you care[/i] what the Evangelical Lutherans believe?

[i][b]They[/b] really don't care[/i] what Catholics believe.
[/quote]
[b]We[/b] care what they believe because
[b]we[/b] believe that it is [b]our[/b] moral imperative to bring [b]them[/b] back Home.

[The Bus Station]

Smells a little better in here, thanks to whoever opened the window.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 August 2009 - 08:04 PM' timestamp='1251075861' post='1955280']
[b]We[/b] care what they believe because
[b]we[/b] believe that it is [b]our[/b] moral imperative to bring [b]them[/b] back Home.
[/quote]

No chance. The Catholic Church lost its chance of taking the moral high ground with its decision on contraception, which is not supported by any mainstream Protestant denomination. It further lost its chance with the ongoing pedophile crisis, which is going to haunt the church for centuries, sort of like the Inquisition did, and still does. You don't get a second chance on these things.

What Catholics think is increasingly irrelevant to Protestants.

Edited August 24, 2009 by jkaands

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='jkaands' date='23 August 2009 - 11:46 PM' timestamp='1251089197' post='1955444']
No chance. The Catholic Church lost its chance of taking the moral high ground with its decision on contraception, which is not supported by any mainstream Protestant denomination. It further lost its chance with the ongoing pedophile crisis, which is going to haunt the church for centuries, sort of like the Inquisition did, and still does. Yo don't get a second chance on these things.

What Catholics think is increasingly irrelevant to Protestants.
[/quote]
We don't care that it's irrelevant to them. We care that it's correct. Seriously, is it that hard to see it the way we do?
Especially that contraception thing. We consider it a sign of contradiction, I believe. At least I do.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Kitty' date='23 August 2009 - 03:53 AM' timestamp='1251010390' post='1954790']
I don't have a problem with gay pastors.
[/quote]

Neither do we...

[OraProMe]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='24 August 2009 - 10:06 AM' timestamp='1251122799' post='1955527']
Neither do we...
[/quote]

I don't know, the Vaticans document barring even those with homosexual orientation from the seminary is pretty disturbing to me. I'm sure it's hurt a lot of good homosexual priests who have upheld their vow of celibacy. Seem it's a disciplinary matter I really hope it's overturned in the future.

What the Lutherans do, well I really don't care either way.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='23 August 2009 - 02:06 PM' timestamp='1251047192' post='1954953']
I think however that at some point it should be pointed out to them that through thick and thin and all the contraversy surrounding moral issues, in the end the Catholic Church has ALWAYS stuck to it's gun. The gates of hell have not prevailed against true moral teaching.
[/quote]

At least twice during conversations with my parents, I noted that they lack firm authority and everything comes down to a vote. I even mentioned how liberal-minded Catholics are more or less "stuck" because they can appeal to our bishops all they want, and maybe have some influence, but in the end they must choose to either submit or leave. Because I read the news releases, I know a lot more about what's going on that my parents do, so when my mom says the vote will be reversed next year, I can tell her it won't be and why.

I think the question I want to ask my dad is, "What is the one issue that you have with the Catholic Church?" But that may have to follow proposing the idea in some form of a joke... after two or three beers... All I really know is to be praying about it and expect God to provide the opportunities.


[quote name='jkaands' date='23 August 2009 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1251058740' post='1955073']
I am totally unfamiliar w/ the evang Lutherans. Are they--well, conceivably--similar to the Episcopal church? Espico's and Luth's sometimes share facilities and i think sometimes services. Missouri Synod Lutherans are the strict ones--and i don't know how the others break down. I think that it would be funny if the ECUSA (Espisc Church USA) and the evang Luth's got together!
[/quote]

The Lutheran World Federation includes 140 distinct Lutheran bodies. They signed the "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification" with the Roman Catholic Church on Oct 31, 1999 (aka Reformation Day and All Hallow's Eve). The ELCA established full communion with the Episcopal Church in 1999 and also shares full communion with the Presbyterian Church(USA), United Church of Christ, Reformed Church in America, Moravian Church, and as of four days ago, also shares full communion with the United Methodist Church.

"Full communion" is similar to how the Roman Catholic Church is in full communion with Eastern Churches. Each maintains their own hierarchy and liturgies, but they can celebrated joint Eucharistic services, share ordained ministers, etc.

Since the hyperlink tool isn't working, here are links for further info:
http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Ecumenical-and-Inter-Religious-Relations/Full-Communion.aspx

http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Communication-Services/News/Releases.aspx?a=4242

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='24 August 2009 - 11:40 AM' timestamp='1251124821' post='1955543']
I don't know, the Vaticans document barring even those with homosexual orientation from the seminary is pretty disturbing to me. I'm sure it's hurt a lot of good homosexual priests who have upheld their vow of celibacy. Seem it's a disciplinary matter I really hope it's overturned in the future.

What the Lutherans do, well I really don't care either way.
[/quote]

"The document, called an instruction, was issued by the Vatican Congregation for Catholic Education Nov. 29. It said that the church cannot allow priestly ordination of men who are active homosexuals, who have 'deep-seated' homosexual tendencies or who support the 'gay culture.'"

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506798.htm

I know there's debate on interpretation, but if the Vatican wanted to ban ordination for all homosexual men, it would simply say that, instead of qualifying their statement with the term "deep-seated." A homosexual man living a joyful and celibate life and is faithful to the Church is should be fine. If God desires a man to be ordained, His own Church is not going to get in the way.

What's happening among other Christians is important for us to know. We're living on the same planet and we need to share a common, peaceful witness to the Gospel.

Edited August 24, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='jkaands' date='23 August 2009 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1251066696' post='1955181']
The point is:
[i]
Why do you care[/i] what the Evangelical Lutherans believe?

[i][b]They[/b] really don't care[/i] what Catholics believe.
[/quote]

Um... I know Lutherans who do care. Caring about what others think and believe goes hand-in-hand with simply caring about other people.


[quote name='jkaands' date='24 August 2009 - 01:46 AM' timestamp='1251089197' post='1955444']
No chance. The Catholic Church lost its chance of taking the moral high ground with its decision on contraception, which is not supported by any mainstream Protestant denomination. It further lost its chance with the ongoing pedophile crisis, which is going to haunt the church for centuries, sort of like the Inquisition did, and still does. You don't get a second chance on these things.

What Catholics think is increasingly irrelevant to Protestants.
[/quote]

Could you explain your logic on the matter of contraception? It would seem to me that we would have lost our so-called "high ground" if we accepted it. Also, there are Protestants who reject the use of contraception.

The pedophile crisis is a far cry from the Spanish Inquisition. Both are horrible occurences fully deserving of our repentance, apologies, and prayers. Fortunately, most people are willing to forgive and seek reconciliation, especially as we recognize that every person is an individual who is only directly responsible for their own actions. A 28-year-old white male is no more guilty of America's history with slavery than he is of the Church's history with pedophilia. Yet as Americans and Catholic, both are crosses we must bear today. Fortunately, we believe in the Resurrection; the worst sin would be to allow past sins to haunt us and steal our hope.

If you follow what happens among Protestants, you'll know that many of them care very much about what's happening among Catholics. We are all baptized, joining us sacramentally by the Word of God.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='jkaands' date='24 August 2009 - 12:46 AM' timestamp='1251089197' post='1955444']
No chance. The Catholic Church lost its chance of taking the moral high ground with its decision on contraception, which is not supported by any mainstream Protestant denomination.[/quote]

Lost the moral high ground? How? The Church has stayed consistent and held the line. A large majority of Protestants have broken ranks, and flipped flopped on the issue which means they have changed the supposed "truth." For them, it shows that their moral standing on contraception is as good as the atheists' view on it. It changes with society.


[quote]It further lost its chance with the ongoing pedophile crisis, which is going to haunt the church for centuries, sort of like the Inquisition did, and still does. You don't get a second chance on these things. [/quote]

First of all, the Church will survive this scandal because its Teachings have not changed on the matter. Throughout all the scandals in the Church, the teachings have not changed. What has happened is you have had fallible men fail, which the Church acknowledges will happen. We do not profess to be perfect. We only profess our Teachings on faith and morals to be rock solid.

[quote]What Catholics think is increasingly irrelevant to Protestants.[/quote]

For the Protestants that believe Truth can change with the whims of society, they will ignore the Church. For the Protestants that realize that the Truth Jesus taught cannot change, they will see a universal Church that has held the line on moral teachings for 2,000 years and will continue to do so no matter what the gates of Hell throw at it.

[Jordanus]

It seems to me that this vote by the Lutherans is not the real issue.

The real issue is that they felt they COULD vote on it at all, whether the vote went up or down.

And that is the disease that both the "conservatives" and the "liberals" in the denomination have in common.

I am sad about this, though. Our society does not need Christians (or anyone else, but especially Christians) actively promoting moral evil. Sexual immorality is the central corruption at the heart of our society, and while it would be best for Christians to be visibly one in the Catholic Church, at least speaking with one voice regarding the evils of the day would be good.