Apotheoun Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1250977041' post='1954423'] No one is "lying" to them. I think she's objecting to name calling (which this thread seems to have a lot of, lol)[/quote] Catholics must stop hiding the light under a bushel. [quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1250977041' post='1954423'] Yes. Jesus said that. You aren't Jesus. [/quote] Those who have been baptized into Christ are Christ, for as St. Ignatios of Antioch explained, without the Church (i.e., the Body of Christ) our Lord becomes ineffectual. Edited August 22, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) [quote]Catholics must stop hiding the light under a bushel.[/quote] Would you call a morbidly obese person a "fat a**"? Or would you say, "Hey, I'm worried about you. You're becoming very unhealthy, and I don't want you to develop a health condition."? Some things are better said in subtly. You can express your dissaproval in a charitable way that not only gets your point across, but gets it across in a kind and respectful manner. [quote]Those who have been baptized into Christ are Christ, and as St. Ignatios of Antioch explained, without the Church (i.e., the Body of Christ) our Lord becomes ineffectual[/quote] Jesus was God. You are not God. You are part of His Church and are His child, but you are not Christ. You may even be one with Him, but you are not Him. Edited August 22, 2009 by Selah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1250977373' post='1954427'] Would you call a morbidly obese person a "fat a**"? Some things are better said in subtly. You can express your dissaproval in a charitable way that not only gets your point across, but gets it across in a kind and respectful manner.[/quote] I speak the truth and if the persons health were in danger I would do so quite bluntly. In this particular case we are speaking about the spiritual health of millions of people, and I would most certainly tell a member of the ELCA that he needs to get out of that heretical body, and enter into communion with the true Church. [quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1250977373' post='1954427'] Jesus was God. You are not God. You are part of His Church and are His child, but you are not Christ. You may even be one with Him, but you are not Him. [/quote] So you deny that the Church in all her members is the Body of Christ? You need to read the homilies of the Fathers (especially St. Augustine) on the Church, because your comments reveal ignorance about the nature of the Church as the perpetual extension of the incarnation. Christians are sons of the Father, and brothers of Christ, and in so far was we live the Orthodox faith we are Christ to those around us. Edited August 22, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 August 2009 - 04:51 PM' timestamp='1250974302' post='1954407'] Although the snide personal comments between some posters are sad, I do not think that the thread itself has decayed. Stating a position that some people may not like to hear is not the same thing as "decay." [/quote] I'm not talking about opposing opinions, I was talking about the personal attacks that were occuring. [quote name='MissyP89' date='22 August 2009 - 05:21 PM' timestamp='1250976115' post='1954414'] Calling them heretics--true or not--is not going to change anyone's heart in the ELCA, especially while we turn our noses down at them. How welcomed would [i]you[/i] feel in our Church if her members spoke of you as inconsequential, invalid, and evil? This is a great loss for the ELCA and, indeed, for the Church as a whole. But as someone else noted, the conservatives will leave. Why not pray for them, that they might help heal the further schism brought about by coming into the fullness of Truth? We need to reach out and open our hearts to them now, not condemn. [/quote] I agree, we should reach out to them, but we also need to condemn their association's approval of sinful actions. Speaking of their community as approving of evil things is not the same as calling them evil. Further, if we acted as though we approved of their condoning of these things and that they were equally as valid as we, what purpose would they see in converting to our Religion? Certainly there are more loving and less loving ways to do this, but it needs to be done, regardless. Edited August 22, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) [quote]I speak the truth and if the persons health were in danger I would do so quite bluntly.[/quote] I hope not in the way in which I presented the first example. [quote]So you deny the Church in all her members is the Body of Christ? [/quote] Oh, yeah, that's exactly what I just got done saying Edited August 22, 2009 by Selah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1250977719' post='1954431'] Oh, yeah, that's exactly what I just got done saying [/quote] Ironically, and without knowing it, that is precisely what you are doing, i.e., you are denying the doctrine of the Church as the Body of Christ. That said, I once believed as you do, but I gave up that belief when I became Catholic more than twenty years ago. Edited August 22, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 [quote]Ironically, and without knowing it, that is precisely what you are doing. I once believed as you do, but I gave up that belief when I became Catholic more than twenty years ago. [/quote] I said that YOU are not Jesus. YOU are not God. YOU are not a Divinity, a Deity, or any combination of the two! How in Zeus's name did you interpret that as, "The Church is not the Body of Christ"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 05:42 PM' timestamp='1250977373' post='1954427'] Would you call a morbidly obese person a "fat a**"? Or would you say, "Hey, I'm worried about you. You're becoming very unhealthy, and I don't want you to develop a health condition."? Some things are better said in subtly. You can express your dissaproval in a charitable way that not only gets your point across, but gets it across in a kind and respectful manner. [/quote] This--and an apt analogy, too. We've seen what Protestant evangelism can do to others. Telling people they're evil and going to hell more often than not [b]does not change hearts[/b] for the better. Having someone call my religion perverted, skewed and evil two years ago didn't make me think, "Wow! I smell of elderberries! I need to go back to the Church ASAP." Yes, Jesus was known for being blunt and tossing the occasional table. But perhaps more important than that was His incredible compassion, mercy, and love. Being steadfast about the Truth is absolutely necessary. However, being frigid does more harm than good. And frigidity is what I see in this thread. Edited August 22, 2009 by MissyP89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 [quote name='MissyP89' date='22 August 2009 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1250977928' post='1954435'] This--and an apt analogy, too. We've seen what Protestant evangelism can do to others. Telling people they're evil and going to hell more often than not [b]does not change hearts[/b] for the better. Having someone call my religion perverted, skewed and evil two years ago didn't make me think, "Wow! I smell of elderberries! I need to go back to the Church ASAP." Yes, Jesus was known for being blunt and tossing the occasional table. But perhaps more important than that was His incredible compassion, mercy, and love. Being steadfast about the Truth is absolutely necessary. However, being frigid does more harm than good. And frigidity is what I see in this thread. [/quote] Only God changes hearts, but He does use His Church to speak truthfully, and yes bluntly, in the face of evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I am afraid that many people at this forum would be shocked if they were to read what the saints and Fathers had to say when they confronted evil, because they were never concerned about being polite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 August 2009 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1250978093' post='1954437'] I am afraid that many people at this forum would be shocked if they were to read what the saints and Fathers had to say when they confronted evil, because they were never concerned about being polite. [/quote] New thread on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 [quote]I am afraid that many people at this forum would be shocked if they were to read what the saints and Fathers had to say when they confronted evil, because they were never concerned about being polite. [/quote] Yes, I've read what many had to say. And I didn't like it, and I am not obligated to like it or think that they behavior was right (I.E. St. Nicholas slapping Arius)They aren't infallible. They aren't some super prophets simply because they have the name "Saint". When did Jesus say "slap the heretics!"? When did he say, "Insult people you don't agree with!"? He didn't But he did say, "turn the other cheek". He did say, "Go a mile with your enemy." "Give your enemy your cloak." He said "Pray" not, "lash out and act like a fool so you can end up on Fox News late at night duking it out with O'Reilly...and or Huckabee." Maybe we need to start doing following Jesus' example instead of paving our own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='22 August 2009 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1250978300' post='1954439'] New thread on this? [/quote] Perhaps you should start a thread on St. John Chrysostom's "Discourses Against the Judaizers," because they are often held up by moderns as examples of patristic anti-semitism. It should be noted that his views on Judaizing heretics are common to all the Fathers and to the canons issued at the ecumenical and particular synods. Edited August 22, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1250978365' post='1954440'] Yes, I've read what many had to say. And I didn't like it, and I am not obligated to like it or think that they behavior was right (I.E. St. Nicholas slapping Arius)They aren't infallible. They aren't some super prophets simply because they have the name "Saint". When did Jesus say "slap the heretics!"? When did he say, "Insult people you don't agree with!"? He didn't But he did say, "turn the other cheek". He did say, "Go a mile with your enemy." "Give your enemy your cloak." He said "Pray" not, "lash out and act like a fool so you can end up on Fox News late at night duking it out with O'Reilly...and or Huckabee." Maybe we need to start doing following Jesus' example instead of paving our own. [/quote] Jesus said to "shake the dust from your feet," and he also spoke of excommunicating those who refused to believe the doctrine of the faith. Jesus was not an effeminate man, even though He is often portrayed that way today. Edited August 22, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) [quote]Jesus said to "shake the dust from your feet," and spoke of excommunication. Jesus was not an effeminate man, even though He is often portrayed that way today. [/quote] Because we ALL know that compassion and kindness is for wussies. Effieminate simply because he was caring and kind? Because he didn't call people names? Because he didn't slap people who disagreed with him across the face? Because he didn't slaughter innocent people who didn't subscribe to a certain belief system? Who the heck are you worshipping? Edited August 22, 2009 by Selah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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