Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='goldenchild17' post='1842764' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:17 PM']Fair enough. Though I still, and this should come as no real surprise considering my status here, I still have to disagree. I believe East and West are allowed to differ on very many points and have many disagreements on many things. But I do believe that both East and West is bound by the infallible teachings put out by the Church, whether this be through all the bishops together or infallibly through the Pope.[/quote] I do accept the infallible teachings of the Church. I just do not believe that the fourteen Latin synods were ecumenical, and so they produced no infallible teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1842762' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:17 PM']The Eastern Catholics I know accept all 21 Ecumenical Councils as ecumenical.[/quote] The Eastern Catholics I know accept only seven Ecumenical Councils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 again, fair enough. I'm not going to debate the points as I am not in a position to do so right now. I don't believe every infallible act has to always come from an ecumenical council either. So to me this point is irrelevant. But I see what you're saying, just a disagreement that's all. peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1842768' date='Apr 21 2009, 05:20 PM']I do accept the infallible teachings of the Church. I just do not believe that the fourteen Latin synods were ecumenical, and so they produced no infallible teachings. [/quote] On what grounds is a council ecumenical, in your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='goldenchild17' post='1842774' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:23 PM']again, fair enough. I'm not going to debate the points as I am not in a position to do so right now. I don't believe every infallible act has to always come from an ecumenical council either. So to me this point is irrelevant. But I see what you're saying, just a disagreement that's all. peace[/quote] Eastern Christians view the ecumenical councils somewhat differently from Western Christians, because we do not believe in the concept of "doctrinal development." For Eastern Christians the doctrines of the Church are immutable realities – after all the faith was delivered once for all to the saints (cf. Jude 1:3) – which is why we see the decrees ([i]horoi[/i]) of the ecumenical councils merely as "fences" put around the doctrinal mystery in order to protect it. In other words, the ecumenical councils teach nothing that is substantively new; instead, the God-inspired Fathers gathered together in the power of the Holy Spirit merely give linguistic expression to the mystery, which nevertheless remains an indefinable mystery because it transcends created human reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1842776' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:24 PM']On what grounds is a council ecumenical, in your opinion?[/quote] As I know any other truth, because it is accepted into the liturgical life and worship of the Church. All seven of the ecumenical councils are commemorated in the liturgy, which is the common expression and manifestation of the mind of the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The rule of prayer is the rule of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 The Roman Rite commemorates no Ecumenical Councils in our liturgy, so I guess we're free to believe whatever we want! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1842789' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:41 PM']The Roman Rite commemorates no Ecumenical Councils in our liturgy, so I guess we're free to believe whatever we want! [/quote] Well, the fact that the Western liturgy does not do that may be what has caused some problems for Roman Catholics in properly discerning the number of ecumenical councils. There has been no official statement from the Roman Church about which councils are ecumenical and which are not. In fact, the number of ecumenical councils approved by the West was only enumerated for the first time by St. Robert Bellarmine in the 17th century, and I do not accept his opinion as authoritative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1842785' date='Apr 21 2009, 04:33 PM']Eastern Christians view the ecumenical councils somewhat differently from Western Christians, because we do not believe in the concept of "doctrinal development." For Eastern Christians the doctrines of the Church are immutable realities – after all the faith was delivered once for all to the saints (cf. Jude 1:3) – which is why we see the decrees ([i]horoi[/i]) of the ecumenical councils merely as "fences" put around the doctrinal mystery in order to protect it. In other words, the ecumenical councils teach nothing that is substantively new; instead, the God-inspired Fathers gathered together in the power of the Holy Spirit merely give linguistic expression to the mystery, which nevertheless remains an indefinable mystery because it transcends created human reason.[/quote] Well I don't know how to express it in the nice wordiness that you do , but I don't think any Catholic believes in new truths being revealed. Truth is truth is truth and the same truth has always been around. Sometimes it is set down at different times for different reasons but it's always been true. For me, that goes for papal infallibility as well. I believe its always been a truth but it had never been put down for a particular reason until 1800's. Anyways, all I can say is that I don't know much about Eastern Catholicism as I have been too distracted by other theological problems to concern myself with it, but the small bit of research that I have done brings me to different conclusions on certain issues than what you sometimes write on phatmass. That's not to say I know I'm right, but it is what it is and I have to go with the sources I trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 This is not what I think of when I hear that Eastern Catholics are "in communion" with the Pope... what does "in communion" with the Pope even mean anymore? What about this one... I am lutheran. I accept everything the lutheran's teach. I acknowledge the Pope as first among the bishops. I reject everything after the reformation because those councils, including the council of trent, are not ecumenical and thus not binding. But I'm in communion with the Pope. I'm a lutheran-Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Someone needs to send a memo to the Bishops and Pope to stop worrying about anything theological anymore. Nothing is binding on anyone since the 700s! Stop trying so hard! haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' post='1842807' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:59 PM']I am lutheran. I accept everything the lutheran's teach. I acknowledge the Pope as first among the bishops. I reject everything after the reformation because those councils, including the council of trent, are not ecumenical and thus not binding. But I'm in communion with the Pope. I'm a lutheran-Catholic.[/quote] The Lutheran "Church" isn't an ancient Apostolic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1842860' date='Apr 21 2009, 05:31 PM']The Lutheran "Church" isn't an ancient Apostolic Church.[/quote] So? that won't prevent them from coming back in communion with the Pope. All the lutherans could become Catholic right now if they wanted. Why can't they just do what I said above? Just say "I'm in communion with the Pope, but I only accept the councils up the reformation." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='goldenchild17' post='1842796' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:50 PM']Anyways, all I can say is that I don't know much about Eastern Catholicism as I have been too distracted by other theological problems to concern myself with it, but the small bit of research that I have done brings me to different conclusions on certain issues than what you sometimes write on phatmass. That's not to say I know I'm right, but it is what it is and I have to go with the sources I trust.[/quote] I was a Latin Catholic for 17 years and I too did not know that much about Eastern Catholicism prior to 2003. But after attending an Eastern Catholic parish in Ohio for two years while working on my MA in Theology, I requested, and was granted, a change of Ritual Church in 2005, and I have been happily Eastern Catholic for the past four years. Now the longer that I have been Eastern Catholic the more immersed I have become in the traditions of my [i]sui juris[/i] Church, and that immersive experience, i.e., of actually living as an Eastern Christian, has helped to change my theological views on many issues (e.g., Christology, Triadology, the nature of deifying grace, etc.). The Eastern Catholic Churches are going to continue the process of de-Latinization, a process that began more that forty years ago, and which involves the restoration our liturgical, spiritual, and doctrinal traditions, even if that process makes some members of the Latin Church uncomfortable. Edited April 21, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='rkwright' post='1842874' date='Apr 21 2009, 04:36 PM']So? that won't prevent them from coming back in communion with the Pope.[/quote] The Lutherans won't come back into communion with the pope as a "church" because the Lutheran groups are not churches. Edited April 21, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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