Slappo Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1840870' date='Apr 19 2009, 06:04 PM']We must seek to do all that is good. All our actions should be motivated by our beliefs, and if our beliefs have no impact upon our actual behavior, they are pointless. Theosis is the actualizing of our beliefs, and to experience theosis we must recapitulate all that Christ did. Such is the teaching of St. Maximos.[/quote] First of all, you STILL didn't answer the question. Yes, actions that we believe to be good ought to be actions that we strive to do, but does that necessitate that we must do every single good action on pain of not being true to our beliefs? I believe that it is good to do mission work in every city of the world. Ought I therefore myself travel and do mission work in every single city? At the same time that I believe mission work in every single city to be a good thing, I also believe it to be a good thing to be a parent that is at home to support the needs of his child. What then am I to do if I am a parent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 hmm I think it would be beneficial and preferable to bring whole communities back into communion with the Church but not at the detriment of any individual soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Slappo' post='1840881' date='Apr 19 2009, 07:13 PM']First of all, you STILL didn't answer the question. Yes, actions that we believe to be good ought to be actions that we strive to do, but does that necessitate that we must do every single good action on pain of not being true to our beliefs?[/quote] I disagree, because believing in the truth requires (i.e., it necessitates) acting upon it. To believe in something and no do anything about it is the kind of dead faith that Luther espoused. Edited April 20, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 being in favor of proselytizing Eastern Orthodox and being said to "proselytize the Eastern Orthodox" are not really that different; you're interpreting it as if it would be an insult to Resurexi to say he proselytizes the Eastern Orthodox... but he would not consider it an insult and thus this is a moot point... he was not called a name, he was not insulted, that's his position. moreover, every act he makes of arguing against an Eastern POV on an online forum is a type of proselytizing of the Eastern Orthodox, because he is suggesting that they ought to convert to be Eastern Catholic when he makes such points. by holding the position that Eastern Orthodox should covert to Catholicism and by arguing in favor of that position on a public forum, one is proselytizing every Eastern Orthodox person who may read the posts... and Ressurexi would be happy about that fact. this is a contrived issue distracting from the point. Ressurexi is a proselytizer of the Eastern Orthodox. fine... I rather admire that in one sense. I believe there should be a two pronged approach to some degree; I believe that individual conversions should not be turned away, nor should arguments which seek to bring about individual conversions be avoided. the pastors of souls have focused all of their attention upon the prong of uniting the whole of both churches... and especially on the level of the Patriarchs themselves that is a good thing... it would be foolish for Pope Benedict to go meat Patriarch Bartholemew and try to convert him personally to Catholicism when he can seek to get his whole Church in union with our whole Church. but individuals who wish to engage in apologetics and debates aimed at the individual conversion of a member of an Orthodox Church to Catholicism, or even vice versa, are to be commended for their zeal for what they believe is the true adherence to Christ's Church as it was founded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 [quote name='Slappo' post='1840881' date='Apr 19 2009, 07:13 PM']I believe that it is good to do mission work in every city of the world. Ought I therefore myself travel and do mission work in every single city? At the same time that I believe mission work in every single city to be a good thing, I also believe it to be a good thing to be a parent that is at home to support the needs of his child. What then am I to do if I am a parent?[/quote] Seeing that you are not omnipresent that would be hard to accomplish, but if you believed that it was good to do missionary work in every city and then did it in none, you would not be living according to your faith, and there would be no value in your belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Proselytizing=trying to convert people. ask Ressurexi what the best thing he imagines coming from his post about Eastern Orthodoxy would be...what his highest intention would be? I bet he'd answer "that it converts people to the Holy Catholic Church in union with the Pope". So he's a proselytizer, QED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1840885' date='Apr 19 2009, 07:16 PM']. . . this is a contrived issue distracting from the point.[/quote] I agree, it is contrived. [quote name='Aloysius' post='1840885' date='Apr 19 2009, 07:16 PM']Ressurexi is a proselytizer of the Eastern Orthodox. fine... I rather admire that in one sense.[/quote] Although I disagree with Resurrexi, I do not doubt his sincerity, and I admire him for speaking his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1840889' date='Apr 19 2009, 06:17 PM']Seeing that you are not omnipresent that would be hard to accomplish, but if you believed that it was good to do missionary work in every city and then did it in none, you would not be living according to your faith, and there would be no value in your belief.[/quote] Could not someone then believe it to be good to proselytize all peoples including EO and then meet that belief by proselytizing some people even if they are not EO? Therefore, Ressurexi could hold true to his belief that the EO should be proselytized in a broader belief of proselytizing without specifically proselytizing the EO. Either way, Aloy made an attempt to move back on topic and I would hate to pull us back off. I don't think that the East should lose their heritage, but I also don't believe we should not attempt to convert Orthodox individually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Slappo' post='1840898' date='Apr 19 2009, 07:24 PM']Could not someone then believe it to be good to proselytize all peoples including EO and then meet that belief by proselytizing some people even if they are not EO?[/quote] The belief if never acted upon, whether because of insecurity or because there were no Eastern Orthodox Christians in the area where he lived, would be empty. Faith requires action. Edited April 20, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Faith, according to the Eastern Fathers, is an energy, and because it is an energy faith -- by its very nature -- requires activity or it has no existence (i.e., it remains a pure mental abstraction). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formosus Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I find it impossible to "convert" a member of the Eastern Orthodox communion since they already hold the SAME faith as the Catholic Church. There is a disagreement on expression of that faith and on the day to day Church governance, but these disagreements are not to the level of Faith. When one says that the Eastern Orthodox are in heresy,they are saying that Greek Catholics are in heresy too because we believe the EXACT SAME THING as they do. Our division and separation is only because of political reality and misunderstanding. St. Maximos the Confessor saw this when it was first beginning to arise,Pope Leo VIII saw this during the controversy with St. Photios. A corporate reunion of Churches is the only way that the schism will truly be healed and any other means will never solve any issue but create more animosity between Churches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' post='1840893' date='Apr 19 2009, 09:20 PM']Proselytizing=trying to convert people. ask Ressurexi what the best thing he imagines coming from his post about Eastern Orthodoxy would be...what his highest intention would be? I bet he'd answer "that it converts people to the Holy Catholic Church in union with the Pope". So he's a proselytizer, QED.[/quote] Well, actually my highest intention would be to glorify God by means of the conversion of Eastern Orthodox Christians but... Edited April 20, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Schismatics, being schismatics need to be converted. If it causes division ol' well, Christ commands us to teach others the one true Faith and bring others to the one true Church. Schismatics are outside the one true Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1841922' date='Apr 20 2009, 07:42 PM']Schismatics, being schismatics need to be converted. If it causes division ol' well, Christ commands us to teach others the one true Faith and bring others to the one true Church. Schismatics are outside the one true Church.[/quote] werd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='goldenchild17' post='1841991' date='Apr 20 2009, 08:15 PM']werd [/quote] That includes Sedes as much as Eastern Orthodox, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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