One Mediator- Jesus, Why All The Hype About Mary?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='19 September 2009 - 06:16 AM' timestamp='1253301413' post='1968727']
you mean saints arn't apointed by the church? and the church, is not defined as a place where men gather in the name of God?

this is not me being hostile, this is a serious question now, I'm asking just to understand, if thats not true what is?
[/quote]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='18 September 2009 - 09:32 AM' timestamp='1253226778' post='1968253']
[size="2"]To be declared a saint, ordinarily, one should intercede with a miracle.The miracle is a sign that he/she is united with God. God would have performed the miracle upon the intercession of the saint. As for Mary,she is not God. But she was the mother of Jesus. We have veneration("doulia") for Mary, but not adoration ("latria"),which is proper only to God. God must be pleased if we give the proper respectto Mary, because He had the angel Gabriel show respect to Mary. And even Jesus Himself honoured Mary even when "His time had not yet come"at the wedding at Cana. I guess Mary was the closest human being to Jesus, not only in glorious times but as well in Jesus' sacrifice.[/size]

[size="2"]Father A Palomo PE East Timor
[/size]
[/quote]

The miracle that Mary performed was to give birth, a virgin birth! to the son of of God! I don't think in your wildest imagination that there would be a greater miracle. For the Church (men) to appoint a Saint they have to have performed a miracle of some type, which must be able to be directly linked to them. [i]The miracles are performed by God as testimony to the works of the saint.[/i] Now all of this has no proof to an atheist but then it's faith. People have the freedom of free choice. If they don't have free choice it is by the works of Satan not God. God wants you to come to him out of love not fear or knowledge.

[Christopher Brandon]

it is also said not to let your right hand know what your left is doing, to be apointed sainthood by the Church would be shameful to me, pray not in the temple for all to see but in secret, your reward then lies in heaven, to be apointed a saint seems to.. well franky "cheapen" it. I think we'll never know the names of most true saints.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='18 September 2009 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1253309027' post='1968818']
I do take some comfort in this.
the church being made up of Man, I believe you are right in that the Man who make up the Church cannot be affected by hell. But I don't think that the modern organizations that call themselves "church" has this same immunity >.> you know what I mean?
[/quote]


Yes I know what you mean my brother from the same Spiritual Father.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='18 September 2009 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1253309281' post='1968820']
it is also said not to let your right hand know what your left is doing, to be apointed sainthood by the Church would be shameful to me, pray not in the temple for all to see but in secret, your reward then lies in heaven, to be apointed a saint seems to.. well franky "cheapen" it. I think we'll never know the names of most true saints.
[/quote]


Well actually they arent declared saints until long after their dead and the church studies their writings and the reported miracles to see if they had heroic virtue.
When we call them Saint it means that they are in Heaven as a powerful friend and helper.
But I do agree with you Christopher, on the fact that many people that are in Heaven will never be known down here on earth.

[Christopher Brandon]

alright well I understand it better today then I did yesturday. but I'm still uneasy about it. I never questioned what Saints did, I was named after Saint Christopher myself. and I understand now praying to a saint would be no different then praying to a dead loved one such as a parent or freind, but on certain levels I don't think I'll ever be okay with the apointing of Saints. but thats okay, I have my opinion, now I understand yours. crisis avoided.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Basically when there proclaimed a Saint the Church is saying "Its safe to beleive their in Heaven and will hear our prayers."
Not trying to impose this on you just trying to bring to light the Churchs outlook a lil.

Thanks for your charitable replies.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='18 September 2009 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1253309027' post='1968818']
I do take some comfort in this.
the church being made up of Man, I believe you are right in that the Man who make up the Church cannot be affected by hell. But I don't think that the modern organizations that call themselves "church" has this same immunity >.> you know what I mean?
[/quote]
You're absolutely right about this. Only the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches can rightly be called Churches. Every other 'church' falls short of the fullness of Truth contained in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, or has deliberately broken from Tradition and put their own interpretations ahead of those we rightly believe to be protected from error.

[Christopher Brandon]

I've spent a couple years in and out visiting an eastern Orthodox perish with my mother, if there were ever a church free of curruption it was that one. I've spent most of my adolecence questioning her why non-orthodox christians arn't allowed to take comunion with the rest of the Church.

it just clicked. I have an apology to go give >.> lol.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='18 September 2009 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1253302659' post='1968733']
I think the shortest version of the reason we venerate Mary is this: Without Jesus, no Mary. Without Mary, no Jesus.
I can't remember where I heard that or even if I have it quite right.

S.
[/quote]

No Mary, No Jesus. Know Mary, Know Jesus.

A spin off that "No Jesus, No Peace. Know Jesus, Know Peace" bumper sticker.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='18 September 2009 - 12:34 AM' timestamp='1253244881' post='1968421']
okay now, wheres that penny slot? *searches around* oh! there it is, now I can put in my 2 cents.

Saints are apointed by the church, the church is made up of man. take that however you want.
[/quote]

If Jesus is only a man, then you are correct to say the Church is only her people.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='18 September 2009 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1253303994' post='1968751']
but arn't all who are faithful?
[/quote]
No. While the faithful may indeed have the Holy Spirit within them, they are certainly not kept free from error thanks to that indwelling in the way the Church is.
[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='17 September 2009 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1253226778' post='1968253']
[size="2"]To be declared a saint, ordinarily, one should intercede with a miracle. The miracle is a sign that he/she is united with God. God would have performed the miracle upon the intercession of the saint. As for Mary, she is not God. But she was the mother of Jesus. We have veneration("doulia") for Mary, but not adoration ("latria"),which is proper only to God. God must be pleased if we give the proper respect to Mary, because He had the angel Gabriel show respect to Mary. And even Jesus Himself honoured Mary even when "His time had not yet come" at the wedding at Cana. I guess Mary was the closest human being to Jesus, not only in glorious times but as well in Jesus' sacrifice.[/size]

[size="2"]Father A Palomo PE East Timor
[/size]
[/quote]
To nitpick just a bit, what's given to all the saints is [i]dulia[/i]; Mary is given [i]hyperdulia[/i], which underscores her place as Queen of Heaven.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='t1kuslik' date='16 August 2009 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1250450167' post='1950561']
I guess the problem I have is the fine line of asking for help and treating Mary as an idol. Luke 4:8 tells us "Worship the LORD your God and serve Him only". When I see pictures of Mary typically she is shown with light radiating from her, a magnificent crown, the Holiest of Holies, etc. Now even in Jesus' time He did not say "bow down and worship My mom". He said, "I am the way, I am the truth...Me, Me, Me" All arrows point to Jesus, always. No if's and's or but's. So my question is why turn those arrows to point to Mary? Why not kneel at the throne of Jesus and stay there? Why let all of this logic come in and say "Well, this is a family after all, today I am going to focus on Mary cuz she is the mother of God"?

Another example, the Word tells us that we are the temple of God (1 Cor 3:16). God's Spirit resides in us. Yet, over and over again the Word tells us to look to the Spirit, not focus so much on the vessel. God's Spirit is in us but we don't create pictures with light radiating from the body. "...until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return" (Gen 3:19). Wouldn't you all agree that worshipping the human body would be considered idolatry?

Is my logic correct here or am I completely off base? In short, it is awesome that God chose Mary to be the earthly mother of Jesus. (Luke 1:28). But the entire New Testament is a story about Christ. Why add so much to it with stories about the wonder and majesty of Mary? "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophesy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book..." Rev 22:18

Peace all! Thanks so much for your help!

Todd
[/quote]

Hi Todd,

I'm not sure, but I think I know your sister. :wink:

I like your example of "pointing arrows", and so I decided that I would use it to explain.

YES! All arrows must be pointed to Christ! Amen, amen, I say it again, blessed be Christ! But unfortunately, our arrows often get a little skewed, and need to be set to the True North. We have friends for that, yes. My best friend in college and I were accountability partners, and helped to re-orient one another when our compasses got a little off. Same with my best friend now -- we're both such solid Catholics, and we care about one another to correct one another when we get a little off course. That is what true friendship is. As iron sharpens iron, so also does man sharpen his fellow man, right?

Devotion to Mary is not about pointing our arrows to Mary. Just the same way that devotion to my friends is not about pointing my arrow at them. In fact, my devotion to my friends is about me helping to "point their arrow" back to Christ, and them returning that favor to me. It's about helping one another. Devotion to Mary, and the rest of the Saints, is about this "spiritual role model" idea. It's about asking Mary to put us back on track ... re-point our arrows back toward Christ ... and also to reference HER arrow (which is pointed the most perfectly toward Christ out of any of us ... I mean, who could have loved Jesus more than his own Mother?) to make sure that our compass never gets thrown off in the first place. Mary was Jesus' mother, and so was the person throughout all of history that loved Jesus the most. If she loved Jesus the most, then I want HER to teach me how to love Christ.

[Christopher Brandon]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='20 September 2009 - 05:08 PM' timestamp='1253480904' post='1969876']
No. While the faithful may indeed have the Holy Spirit within them, they are certainly not kept free from error thanks to that indwelling in the way the Church is.[/quote]

I don't think I agree with you. Jesus said it is by our own faith we are healed. Blind as my faith may be I believe we can recieve guidance enough from the holy spirit to avoid error. though it certainly would not be easy.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='20 September 2009 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1253503550' post='1970152']
I don't think I agree with you. Jesus said it is by our own faith we are healed. Blind as my faith may be I believe we can recieve guidance enough from the holy spirit to avoid error. though it certainly would not be easy.
[/quote]

And yet, the bible encourages us to seek guidance from friends: "As iron sharpens iron, so also does man sharpen his fellow man."

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='20 September 2009 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1253503704' post='1970155']
And yet, the bible encourages us to seek guidance from friends: "As iron sharpens iron, so also does man sharpen his fellow man."
[/quote]

Indeed, without parents and teachers to bring us up in the Faith, where would we be? Should we not teach our children, and expect that the Holy Spirit will "provide enough guidance"?