One Mediator- Jesus, Why All The Hype About Mary?

[Guest t1kuslik]

Hello,

My sister Lisa (Catholic) & I (Protestant) had the discussion about the importance of Mary. She venerates Mary and sees Mary as a way to deepen her relationship and love for God. I am confused on why Catholics use Mary to "reach" God when the Bible tells us that there is only One Mediator between man & God and that is the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5). Why go a round-about way when you can go directly?

Blessings,
Todd

[Hassan]

Is this a spambot thingy?

[cmotherofpirl]

Welcome to phatmass phamily.
The short answer is of course we can go directly to Jesus, but we also think of terms of family. Mary is the Mother of God, and therefore our mum in heaven, so we can mention things to her, or any of the saints who are our faith family already in heaven. Do you as a christian ask other people to pray for you? So do we, except we are asking members of the Church Triumphant - those already in heaven as well asd those still on earth.

[jmjtina]

Great question! and welcome!

from [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp"]catholic.com[/url]

[u][b]One Mediator[/b][/u]


[b]Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator. [/b]

[Brother Adam]

We rightfully praise God's creation, the mountains, oceans, and great forests. We rightly ask other Christians to pray for us. Mary is God's creation and the Mother of God. Makes sense to me.

[tinytherese]

I once heard a joke about a Protestant minister who went to heaven and when he got there Jesus took him around and said, "I know that you've met My Father but I don't believe that you've met my Mother."

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=96695"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=96695[/url]

[Guest t1kuslik]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1950459' date='Aug 16 2009, 12:18 PM']I once heard a joke about a Protestant minister who went to heaven and when he got there Jesus took him around and said, "I know that you've met My Father but I don't believe that you've met my Mother."

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=96695"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=96695[/url][/quote]


LOL! That's a good one. =)

Thank you all for your posts. You are appreciated. Let's together get to the bottom of this issue!

I googled "mary mother of god" and found this site: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp[/url]

It definitely helped clarify the Catholic position. I see how Mary can be called the Mother of God in that she was the mother of Jesus who was God. Makes sense.

And I definitely agree that people can intercede in the sense of offering up prayers, talking to God, etc. For example, Moses in the book of Exodus interceded between the Israelites and God I.e. Commandments, Instructions on building the tabernacle, asking God to not destroy them after worshipping the Golden Calf, etc. I also agree that you can ask friends and family to pray for you and if they are Christian and they ask according to God's will He will answer. All of these I am fine with.

I guess the problem I have is the fine line of asking for help and treating Mary as an idol. Luke 4:8 tells us "Worship the LORD your God and serve Him only". When I see pictures of Mary typically she is shown with light radiating from her, a magnificent crown, the Holiest of Holies, etc. Now even in Jesus' time He did not say "bow down and worship My mom". He said, "I am the way, I am the truth...Me, Me, Me" All arrows point to Jesus, always. No if's and's or but's. So my question is why turn those arrows to point to Mary? Why not kneel at the throne of Jesus and stay there? Why let all of this logic come in and say "Well, this is a family after all, today I am going to focus on Mary cuz she is the mother of God"?

Another example, the Word tells us that we are the temple of God (1 Cor 3:16). God's Spirit resides in us. Yet, over and over again the Word tells us to look to the Spirit, not focus so much on the vessel. God's Spirit is in us but we don't create pictures with light radiating from the body. "...until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return" (Gen 3:19). Wouldn't you all agree that worshipping the human body would be considered idolatry?

Is my logic correct here or am I completely off base? In short, it is awesome that God chose Mary to be the earthly mother of Jesus. (Luke 1:28). But the entire New Testament is a story about Christ. Why add so much to it with stories about the wonder and majesty of Mary? "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophesy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book..." Rev 22:18

Peace all! Thanks so much for your help!

Todd

[cmotherofpirl]

Think about it this way. For nine months Mary carried God in her womb, she is rightfully called the Theokotos - God - bearer. All of the human parts of the God- man came from his mum. His human makeup, his hair color etc came from his mum. His first miracle that was recorded was done because his mum asked him. She is the human being that said yes to God, and undid the no of Eve. So of all the members of the human race - she is unique. That is why she is called the Immaculate Conception, because unless she were perfect how could she carried God in her womb. [I can't remember the scripture quote]. So of course we show Mary as being "full of grace", she is. THat is NOT worship, that is showing that she was the most important member of the human race . In the Gospel of St Luke, she says "and all will call me blessed".

And as for another topic, Scripture is the Word of God, because the Catholic Church says it is. We guarentee the book, the book doesn't guarentee the Church, so many people don't seem to realize that. The Church began at Pentecost, the Scriptures [ NT] came later. Scripture is the book of the Church, collated by the Church, and particular books were decided in the early great Councils of theChurch, so nothing in there disagrees with the Church.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='t1kuslik' post='1950561' date='Aug 16 2009, 02:16 PM']Is my logic correct here or am I completely off base? In short, it is awesome that God chose Mary to be the earthly mother of Jesus. (Luke 1:28). But the entire New Testament is a story about Christ. Why add so much to it with stories about the wonder and majesty of Mary? "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophesy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book..." Rev 22:18

Peace all! Thanks so much for your help!

Todd[/quote]

[b]Hi, Todd,[/b]

[b]The NT tells us a lot about Mary. And the Bible is not the only source of God's Revelation. Some of the teaching of the Apostles was written down and was canonized as Scripture at the end of the fourth century. Some was transmitted by other methods and was preserved as Sacred Apostolic Tradition. The notion that everything man needs to know about God and about his own salvation is written in the Bible was invented in the 16th century. There are a number of different "Bibles" among Christian groups -- which one is the "real" Word of God? The Catholic Church was a witness to Mary's life. She was in the Upper Room with the Apostles when the Church was born at Pentecost in A.D. 33. The Church knows her personally. She was one of the first members of the Church.

DT (Deuteronomy) 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it; that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." But 41 additional 'books' were added to the Old Testament (OT) and 27 of the Church's own writings became the NT and were added to the OT to form the Bible. Deuteronomy 4:2 means don't add to DT. Rev 22:18 means don't add to Revelation. There was no cohesive collection of writings called the Bible until the end of the fourth century. The Bible is a collection of writings -- written at different times by different people at different locations for different purposes and audiences. Each 'book' stands alone; the Church put them together named them [i]'ta Biblia'[/i] -- [i]'the little books'[/i] -- the Bible.

Peace be with you, Katholikos[/b]

[MIKolbe]

Hi Todd-

Here is something I read a while back and it helped me to understand. I did not read this article and :snap: perfect comprehension; but it was an aide in my journey home.

here is it

[quote]It once seemed perfectly obvious to me that Catholics honored Mary too much. All those feasts, rosaries, icons, statues and whatnot were ridiculously excessive. Yes, the gospel of Luke said something about her being "blessed" and yes I thought her a good person. But that was that. People who celebrated her or called her "Mother" or did all the million things which Catholic piety encourages bordered on idolatry. It was all too much. Jesus, after all, is our Savior, not Mary.

However, after looking at the gospel of Luke afresh and thinking more and more about the humanity of Jesus Christ, some things dawned on me. For it turns out that Luke said more than "something" about Mary. He reports that God was conceived in her womb and thereby made a son of Adam! This means more than merely saying that Mary was an incubator unit for the Incarnation. It means that the Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity derives his humanity--all of it--from her! Why does this matter? Because the entire reason we are able to call Jesus "savior" at all is because the God who cannot die became a man who could die. And he chose to do it through Mary's free "yes" to him. No Mary, no human nature for Christ. No human nature for Christ, no death on the cross. No death, no resurrection. No resurrection, no salvation. Without Mary, we are still in our sins.

This made me see Mary very differently. The Incarnation is vastly more than God zipping on a disposable man-suit. He remains man eternally. Therefore, his joining with the human race through the womb of Mary means (since he is the savior of us all), that she is the mother of us all (John 19:27). Moreover, it means that her remarkable choice to say "Yes" to the Incarnation was not merely a one-time incident, it was an offering of her own heart to God and us. Her heart was pierced by the sword that opened the fountain of blood and water in Christ's human heart, for it was she who, by the grace of God, gave him that heart (Luke 2:35; John 19:34).

Seeing this, I began to wonder again: If Catholics honor Mary "too much", where did we Evangelicals honor her "just enough." Mary herself said "henceforth, all generations will call me blessed." When was the last time I had heard a contemporary Christian tune on the radio sung in honor of Mary? Or a prayer in church to extol her? How about a teensy weensy bit of verse or a little article in some magazine singling out Mary as blessed among women? Aside from "Silent Night" was there anything in Evangelical piety which dared to praise her for even a moment? I was an Evangelical for seven years and I never saw so much as a dram of it.

So the question became for me, "How could we talk about something being 'excessive' when we had virtually no experience of it ourselves?" What if it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our horror of Marian piety and Catholics who are normal? Judging from the witness of the early Fathers and even of Martin Luther (who had a very robust Marian devotion and whose tomb is decorated with an illustration of the Assumption of the Virgin into Heaven) it seemed to me that it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our fear of her rather than Catholics who were excessive in their devotion.[/quote]

- MIKolbe

[MissyP89]

Hi, Todd!

Here's another perspective worth considering. Mary and the saints, as I'm sure you know, are not idols or persons to be worshiped--any Catholic that claims he or she worships Mary or a saint has their wires crossed. Send them here and we'll help with the uncrossing.

I spent a long time away from the Church,. so when I came back 2 1/2 years ago, I was still a bit uncomfortable with Mary and the saints. Generally, I look to them as my role models. Saints aren't superheroes; they're real people with real lives and flaws--that's always been so attractive to me. They've run the race and received their eternal reward as promised to us in Scripture. If they can sin like me and overcome to turn to holiness, than I can. I think there's a great advantage in being able to say "Hey, can you pray for me?" to our Christian family in heaven.

Just my $0.02. Hope that helps!

[thessalonian]

Todd,

Welcome to the board. I might add a few things to what has already been said. Serving God completely does not me that we serve noone else. If it did I would be practicing idolatry by serving my family. Secondly scripture says Mary is the Mother of God when Elizabeth says "how is it that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me". Jesus was Lord because he is God. Mary gave birth to the God-man, i.e. God himself passed through the birth canal. She held God in her womb for 9 moths. She reared God as her child. THere is no good reason not to call her Mother of God.

Thirdly God exalts man for his glory "that people may SEE the good that you do and give glory to God'. Paul says what you see in him and in others, imitate. Was this idolatrous? No. It gives glory to God to imiate what is good and therefore was placed there by him. God exalts and gives position and authority "that you may sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes". Those in heaven recieve crowns so evidently God honors them so why shouldn't we?

There is a great parallel if you look between 2 Sam 6 and Luke 1 with regard to the Ark of the Covenant. David says "how can the ark of my lord can come to me" Elizabeth says "how is it that the mother of my Lord should come to me". David leaps and dances before the Ark and John the Baptist leaps before Mary. The Ark stays with Obemedon for three months and he is blessed. Mary stays with Elizabeth for 3 months and she is blessed. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. When one sees this and puts Catholic theology in light of it, regarding things that happened to the Ark in the Old Testament, Marian theology makes alot more sense. Much more I could say.

It should also be noted that Jesus is the fullfullment of the promises regarding the Davidic Kingdom. The davidic kingdom did not just have a king. There were many offices. One called the Steward directly parallels the Papacy and there is a passage in Is 22:22 that directly parallels Matt 16:18. There was also the position of the queen mother who interceeded for the people. Mary is the Queen Mother. She interceeds for us. At the wedding of Cana she interceeded for the couple with Jesus when the wine ran out.

God bless

[thessalonian]

Ps. We don't worship Mary. However as "blessed among women" we do as the scriptures say and honor her. "ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL YOU BLESSED". Do you call her blessed?

[Maggyie]

Everything about Mary points to Jesus - He is the source of all of her power and glory, without Him she would be nothing (like all of us). Her role in the Bible, her entire purpose is to say to us "Do whatever He tells you." So you are correct that the New Testament is a story about Christ - but our stories about Mary are really about Christ, too. For instance, when we talk about her assumption into Heaven, the point of the story is that Jesus has raised her from the dead, not just spiritually but physically, and He will do the same for us on the last day. Not that Mary was so holy but that Jesus keeps His promises and is able to do what He said He will do. Similarly with the Immaculate Conception, the point of the feast is that Christ is truly God and therefore came to His people in a perfect, immaculate tabernacle (His mother's womb), just as God dwelled in the holy of holies. And so on and so forth...

Edited August 17, 2009 by Maggie

[tinytherese]

Well Todd, your mention of Mary in art work reminded me of what the great Catholic author G.K. Chesterton wrote about her. Perhaps a google search with that would help. And there is this lovely series on Our Lady.

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