The Purpose Of Hell

[Hassan]

Selah: I am not trying to hijack your thread. If my questions start distracting from what you are trying to find out please just let me know.

[Selah]

You're fine

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1949964' date='Aug 15 2009, 05:37 PM']Why? If they have only original sin and not mortal sin and hell is for those who die in a state of mortal sin.[/quote]

Infant's limbo is not the hell of the damned.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Selah' post='1949917' date='Aug 15 2009, 06:05 PM']

Well? Do people who live virtuous lives but are not Christians still go to hell simply because they were another religion (or lack of)? Or do they go for their misdeeds?[/quote]


These links will help answer your question.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_..._the_Church.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm[/url]

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[Hassan]

I'm not that concerned with it to be honest. I'm really concerned about the eternal part.

[Selah]

[quote]I'm not that concerned with it to be honest. I'm really concerned about the eternal part.[/quote]

I am too.

[Hassan]

I have Jewish family that had to flee Eastern Europe, I grew up surrounded by people who survived or had to flee Hitler. Not just Jews either, Hitler hated Slavs in general and much of Eastern Europe suffered horribly under him. I know what a monster Hitler was. I really do. (to the greatest extent someone who didn't suffer his madness can).

(In fact my best friend only exists now because the SS Commandant of the camp his grandfather was in enjoyed his music and decided he could live)

But even he I don't know if he merits eternal damnation.

I mean did he not have the slightest bit of redeamable goodness in him?

I doubt that. I mean he must have loved someone.


Slobodan Milošević (who oddly enough looked a great deal like my father ) was a monster. A dear friend of mine was a Croat and she survived the Balkin wars. I also am close to people who were in Bosnia during the cleansing. He, both in his direct ethnic cleansing actions and in actions which caused those horrible wars, was a awful man.

But by all accounts he was a tender and loving husband. Isn't that something? I mean doesn't even the smallest bit of good in even the most wicked of men speak to the possibility of redemption being within them?

Edited August 15, 2009 by Hassan

[havok579257]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1949988' date='Aug 15 2009, 06:53 PM']I have Jewish family that had to flee Eastern Europe, I grew up surrounded by people who survived or had to flee Hitler. Not just Jews either, Hitler hated Slavs in general and much of Eastern Europe suffered horribly under him. I know what a monster Hitler was. I really do. (to the greatest extent someone who didn't suffer his madness can).

(In fact my best friend only exists now because the SS Commandant of the camp his grandfather was in enjoyed his music and decided he could live)

But even he I don't know if he merits eternal damnation.

I mean did he not have the slightest bit of redeamable goodness in him?

I doubt that. I mean he must have loved someone.


Slobodan Milošević (who oddly enough looked a great deal like my father ) was a monster. A dear friend of mine was a Croat and she survived the Balkin wars. I also am close to people who were in Bosnia during the cleansing. He, both in his direct ethnic cleansing actions and in actions which caused those horrible wars, was a awful man.

But by all accounts he was a tender and loving husband. Isn't that something? I mean doesn't even the smallest bit of good in even the most wicked of men speak to the possibility of redemption being within them?[/quote]


Its as simple as this. Heaven is God's house. He says we are all welcome to it as long as we follow his rules. If you break his rules and don't ask for his forgivness, then you don't get to enter his house. God is willing to reward us all with eternal happiness and eternal love as slong as we simplying follow his rules. Not only that but he goes one step further. He says even if you don't always follow my rules, as long as you ask for forgivness and mean it, I will forgive you and you can enter my house. Its the same with you. You have certain rules about people who enter your house. You have certain rules for people who want to come into your house. If they don't follow those rules, then they don't get in.

If someone goes to hell is because they didn't follow God's rules and did ask for foregivness when they broke his rules. A person sends themself to hell, not God.

[Hassan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1950023' date='Aug 15 2009, 07:26 PM']Its as simple as this. Heaven is God's house. He says we are all welcome to it as long as we follow his rules. If you break his rules and don't ask for his forgivness, then you don't get to enter his house. God is willing to reward us all with eternal happiness and eternal love as slong as we simplying follow his rules. Not only that but he goes one step further. He says even if you don't always follow my rules, as long as you ask for forgivness and mean it, I will forgive you and you can enter my house. Its the same with you. You have certain rules about people who enter your house. You have certain rules for people who want to come into your house. If they don't follow those rules, then they don't get in.

If someone goes to hell is because they didn't follow God's rules and did ask for foregivness when they broke his rules. A person sends themself to hell, not God.[/quote]


The simply destroy the souls of those who would be damned.

Let death be the end of it for them.

God isn't simply saying if you wish to enter my house then here are the rules.

That is just enough.

Rather, he says "enter my house by following my rules or take your place in the fires"

Two very different arrangements.

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1950026' date='Aug 15 2009, 05:29 PM']The simply destroy the souls of those who would be damned.

Let death be the end of it for them.

God isn't simply saying if you wish to enter my house then here are the rules.

That is just enough.

Rather, he says "enter my house by following my rules or take your place in the fires"

Two very different arrangements.[/quote]

I tried to address this elsewhere, so I'm going to repost part of what I said there.

I bolded the parts I thought were more relevant to this thread, as I didn't want to make it incoherent by cutting out too much. I put your quotes in red.

[quote][color="#FF0000"][i]QUOTE
And yet that dichotomy is one he has created. Either eternal paradise or eternal torment is a pretty extreme dichotomy.[/i][/color]


But why is that unjust, if he is the creator. We were created, according to Catholic theology, to know God and to love him and to be with him for all eternity. He's given us the freedom to reject him. But if God is what Catholics believe Him to be, namely the creator of all things who is goodness itself, then rejection of him is an extreme injustice... a much more extreme injustice than you could propose that a creator could have caused his creatures... [b]We owe him honor and love because he created us and that's why he created us. If we choose not to cooperate with our very reason for existence than there is no reason why He should be obligated to lessen the consequences. We make an extreme choice to love God, or not to love God. The consequences simply correlate. Why should he be obligated to make the consequences less extreme when the difference between the choice we make is extreme? He is under no obligation to make a middle ground. He owes us nothing. On what grounds would he?[/b]

[b]All of the suffering in hell is the result of being cut off from God, from love, because He is love, from joy, because he is joy, from life, because he is life. It would be like tearing off your skin. You are meant to have skin... If you tear it off, it is going to be painful, because it's supposed to remain intact. The punishment is self-inflicted, a direct consequence of tearing your skin off. In the same way, we are meant to be with God. When we are not, it is going to hurt. It's not that he selects all these arbitrary punishments to inflict on someone just to hurt them for doing something wrong.[/b] The quotes from Aquinas and the church fathers only reinforce that. Which ones suggest that God punishes people for the sake of just punishing them?

[color="#FF0000"][i]QUOTE
According to theologians the pain of loss and the pain of sense constitute the very essence of hell, the former being by far the most dreadful part of eternal punishment. But the damned also suffer various "accidental" punishments.[/i]


[i]QUOTE
Just as the blessed in heaven are free from all pain, so, on the other hand, the damned never experience even the least real pleasure. In hell separation from the blissful influence of Divine love has reached its consummation.
The reprobate must live in the midst of the damned; and their outbursts of hatred or of reproach as they gloat over his sufferings, and their hideous presence, are an ever fresh source of torment.
The reunion of soul and body after the Resurrection will be a special punishment for the reprobate, although there will be no essential change in the pain of sense which they are already suffering.[/i]

[i]
QUOTE
(1) The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss. A more intense hatred of God, a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness, a more restless craving to satisfy the natural desire for beatitude with things external to God, a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment -- all this implies as its correlation a more complete and more painful separation from God.[/i][/color]


These punishments are the result of having not fulfilled one's reason for existence. Not something that God goes out of his way to make anyone feel. When you look back on any decision, you will naturally reflect on that. It is extreme because it was an extreme choice. Not fulfilling one's reason for existence is extreme, by its very nature. Even in something as simple as an object. If I have a pen, the purpose of my pen is to be able to write with it. If my pen is not able to write, it is useless as a pen. Throwing it out if it doesn't work, and keeping it if it does, are the extreme consequences of fulfilling, or not fulfilling, its purpose of being. I could keep it even if it doesn't work, but there's no purpose. It is technically unreasonable to keep it. (Obviously I'm not suggesting that God "throws out" a soul because it doesn't fulfill it's purpose, because in that case, it is a matter of free will... I'm just trying to point out why it's perfectly reasonable to have extreme ends in this situation, because it too, is a matter of cooperating with one's nature and purpose, which is always a situation of extremes in its very essence... one either fulfills ones' purpose, or does not... it isn't a matter with gray areas, so it wouldn't make sense for the consequences to be any less extreme than the choice itself.)
[color="#FF0000"][i]
QUOTE
(2) The pains of hell are essentially immutable; there are no temporary intermissions or passing alleviations.[/i][/color]


Once again, just a result of being separated from God. [b]Permanent separation will mean permanent pain.[/b] That isn't God's fault.
[color="#FF0000"]
[i]QUOTE
However, accidental changes in the pains of hell are not excluded. Thus it may be that the reprobate is sometimes more and sometimes less tormented by his surroundings. Especially after the last judgment there will be an accidental increase in punishment; for then the demons will never again be permitted to leave the confines of hell, but will be finally imprisoned for all eternity; and the reprobate souls of men will be tormented by union with their hideous bodies.

(3) Hell is a state of the greatest and most complete misfortune, as is evident from all that has been said. The damned have no joy whatever, and it were better for them if they had not been born (Matthew 26:24).[/i][/color]


[b]Our bodies and our souls are a composite. They go together, and because of that God ordained that all men should be reunited with their bodies, regardless of eternal consequence. [/b]The point I was making about that was simply that corporal punishment is the least punishment of hell. Our bodies, like our souls, were created to glorify God, and we have a choice to correspond with that, or not. And insofar as our bodies have not corresponded, there will be pain. Again, that's a natural consequence, Again, that doesn't mean God is tormenting them. They're tormenting themselves.[/quote]

I will also add, that someone can be "good" in some ways, but if they've rejected God, they wouldn't be happy in Heaven. But at the same time, that is a choice that goes against what we were created for, and thus, will have painful consequences.

Edited August 16, 2009 by zunshynn

[havok579257]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1950026' date='Aug 15 2009, 07:29 PM']The simply destroy the souls of those who would be damned.

Let death be the end of it for them.

God isn't simply saying if you wish to enter my house then here are the rules.

That is just enough.

Rather, he says "enter my house by following my rules or take your place in the fires"

Two very different arrangements.[/quote]


he's saying the same thing you would say to someone. to enter my house, follow my rules. if not, you don't get to enter my house. if you choose, freely choose to not follow my rules, then you will chose to go to hell. simple as that. i really don't see what's so unfair about this. God says I will give you eternal happiness and love and make you content for all eternity, all you have to do is follow my rules. Although if you mess up, just ask for forgiveness and you can enter my house. If not you go to hell. Why should someone be allowed to enter heaven, God's house when he disrespects God, he refuses to follow his rule, refuses to love him and refuses to acknowledge he exists? If someone treated you that way, would you reward them? If someone disrespected you, spoke all kinds of evil against you, got a lardge number of people to not believ in you, got a large number of people to hate you, refused to follow your rules and basically treated you like croutons, would you let them enter your house?

[Selah]

[quote]he's saying the same thing you would say to someone. to enter my house, follow my rules. if not, you don't get to enter my house. if you choose, freely choose to not follow my rules, then you will chose to go to hell. simple as that. i really don't see what's so unfair about this.[/quote]

Call me crazy, but I don't threaten my guests with eternal damnation if they choose to not follow my rules. They might be told to leave, but if they promised to behave themselves, I'd let them visit again.

Rules, I can understand. Obey. Behave. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is, "You must follow this religion or Deity to go to heaven, or you go to hell." THAT is what I don't get.

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Selah' post='1950106' date='Aug 15 2009, 07:04 PM']Call me crazy, but I don't threaten my guests with eternal damnation if they choose to not follow my rules. They might be told to leave, but if they promised to behave themselves, I'd let them visit again.

Rules, I can understand. Obey. Behave. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is, "You must follow this religion or Deity to go to heaven, or you go to hell." THAT is what I don't get.[/quote]

Again, the consequences are extreme because the choice is extreme. The reason the consequences of this are greater than the consequences of a houseguest being rude to his host is because although that analogy works on some level, it is a much smaller scale.

God is infinite goodness... if you reject him, you are rejecting goodness itself. You are choosing not to partake of goodness. Because He IS goodness... you can't say... Well I don't want you, God, but I do want to experience some of your attributes. You can't... they're inseperable. If you don't want to follow God, that means you want to be separated from Him... that separation is Hell. He gives everyone that choice.

[Selah]

[quote]Again, the consequences are extreme because the choice is extreme.[/quote]



Choosing not to believe in a Deity among thousands of others is extreme?

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Selah' post='1950129' date='Aug 15 2009, 07:15 PM']

Choosing not to believe in a Deity among thousands of others is extreme?[/quote]

Yes, although God is the ultimate judge of how extreme the decision was for each individual, whether or not someone sought the truth sincerely to the best of their ability or not. There could be extenuating factors that prevented someone from embracing the Catholic faith, including emotional barriers. On the same token, someone could outwardly be a practicing Catholic, and yet interiorly have rejected God. But that is for God to judge, not me.

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.shtml#art1"]See CCC 1260 [/url][quote]Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.[/quote]

Edited August 16, 2009 by zunshynn