Bruce S Posted April 2, 2004 Author Share Posted April 2, 2004 (edited) [quote]If Mary came down to earth and requested that the Pope do something, one can safely assume that Jesus was behind it. I do not believe anyone has the authroity to disobey a command from heaven, even the Pope. [/quote] I'm VERY aware of this passage, I keep coming back to it, and it guides me when approaching any manifestations... 2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself [can be] transformed into an angel of light. Now I know that Mary doesn't actually ever command people to go against God, that would be too easy to spot as troublesome, however, "She" always seems to be asking for adoration, in a sense, replacing the emphasis upon "Her" and away from Jesus all too often that alone honestly brings me pause. I'm still "OUT" on these apparitions, Zeitun is the one that most troubles me, it is just not sitting well, and Medujarie is ... well.... something best left unsaid in this pond. Edited April 2, 2004 by Bruce S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 bruce, do you care to respond to anna's last post, and mine as well? do you still think the church's actions are "CIA and NSA-ish"? pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 [quote name='Hananiah' date='Apr 2 2004, 01:30 PM'] If Mary came down to earth and requested that the Pope do something, one can safely assume that Jesus was behind it. I do not believe anyone has the authroity to disobey a command from heaven, even the Pope. [/quote] Hananiah, The purpose of the Church is precisely because we can NOT be sure that Jesus is behind it. Satan can appear to anyone and look like Mary! There are thousands upon thousands of "Marian" apperitions. Only a select few are even paid attention to. The Church is the only Authority that can determine what comes down from Heaven to begin with. The only command we, as the laity, know for certain came from heaven was this: "you are Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my Church." You are right that the Pope cannot disobey a command from heaven. But if the command coming from Mary, contradicts what he has recieved from the Church - through the Apostles - then he can be assured that this is not from heaven. One of St. Francis' disciples saw Jesus in a vision. "Jesus" told this friar that he was damned and there was nothing he could do! It was only through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that St. Francis was able to descern this devil and direct his disciple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted April 2, 2004 Author Share Posted April 2, 2004 I have been "on" the 3rd Secret of Fatima for about 10 years now...OOH, oh, did I say that out loud?? It is one of those fascinating things, like the Shroud, Catholic secret orders, and such that I have NEVER given up on, so unlike those here, this is really only new to me with the sequestering of Sister Lucia. I guess, in all my studies, I knew that, but until yesterday, that aspect of things didn't rise on my radar screne. Look. The RELEASED version of Fatima #3, is questionable, in the extreme. There is NOTHING in the proffered public version that is even mildly resonable to have caused NUMEROUS Popes to go AGAINST the direct commands of "Mary the Apparition" to release it in the 60's as commanded by "Her". There is MORE, much MORE that is NOT being revealed. And the Catholic Church like all institutions will go to every and any lenght to cover up that which threatens it's beauracracy, nothing unique there, that is just human nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted April 2, 2004 Author Share Posted April 2, 2004 [quote]The Church is the only Authority [b]that can determine what comes down from Heaven to begin with.[/b][/quote] Err, isn't that one BACKWARDS? Or does the Catholic Church control heaven nowadays too, in addition to this site? Wouldn't heaven ITSELF determine what "comes down" if ANYTHING ever really does "come down" from the highest? PS: The entire "Appararition Thing" makes Pentecostal excesses seem tame... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 you make it difficult to be charitable, bruce......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 [quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 2 2004, 03:02 PM'] Err, isn't that one BACKWARDS? Or does the Catholic Church control heaven nowadays too, in addition to this site? Wouldn't heaven ITSELF determine what "comes down" if ANYTHING ever really does "come down" from the highest? PS: The entire "Appararition Thing" makes Pentecostal excesses seem tame... [/quote] Bruce just stop and think about the posts before you respond. I didn't mean to say that the Church tells heaven what to send down. If Heaven sends down a message, the Church is the only Authority that can determine what it is that the message means. The Catholic Church doesn't control heaven. She is the Body of Christ. She mediates between Heaven and us. Without the Church we could not be sure of what is from Heaven and what is from Hell. You yourself read the passage about Satan showing as an angel of light. If the Church didn't exist, there would be no Bible for you to have read that! The Church determines for us what comes down from heaven. I'm not using "determine" as in "mandates". Like I determine who does the dishes tonight. The Church determines, as in, if my boss tells me what to do, I must determine what his intent is in order for me to do it right. I'm using this definition: : to find out or come to a decision about by investigation, reasoning, or calculation <determine the answer to the problem> <determine a position at sea> You are thinking of this definition: : to bring about as a result But somehow I think you knew that... And FYI, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't control this site. It seems to me you need to do some research and understand what exactly the Roman Catholic Church is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted April 2, 2004 Author Share Posted April 2, 2004 [quote]I didn't mean to say that the Church tells heaven what to send down. If Heaven sends down a message, the Church is the only Authority that can determine what it is that the message means. [/quote] Err... AGAIN. IF there came a TRUE MESSAGE DOWN FROM HEAVEN, would NOT the message ITSELF be "Authoritative?" Or is the INTERPRETATION **OF** more important than the direct WORDS RENDERED TO? Come on now, get this one right. I'm sort of serious on this, for a change, for some of these "Apparitions" SEEM VERY VERY provable, and for a flaming Protestant they ARE or are NOT. So, carefully respond...please. Who determines the TRUTH, the APPARITION ITSELF, and THE DIRECT WORDS IT RENDERS, or the Church here on earth "receiving them?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted April 2, 2004 Author Share Posted April 2, 2004 [quote]You are right that the Pope cannot disobey a command from heaven.[/quote] Several HAVE, done just that, DISOBEYED the command to RELEASE the 3rd Prophecy of Fatima, by date X, and date X, passed LONG after "Mary" told the church to proclaim "Her" message, a DIRECT COMMAND. So that statment is "Newman Style" inoperative former truth, right? Smooch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 [quote]Who determines the TRUTH, the APPARITION ITSELF, and THE DIRECT WORDS IT RENDERS, or the Church here on earth "receiving them?" [/quote] The Church here on earth, "receiving them". Otherwise we, the people, would not know. The pope cannot disobey a command from heaven, in his Teachings on Faith and Morals. Sorry. I guess I have to be explicit every time. Bruce, I give up... God bless you on your search for the Truth - if that is what you are here for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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