Gag Order On Sister Lucia

[Bruce S]

I've been reading some materials on normally ultra Catholic sites on Sister Lucia and the supposed "gag order" on her by JP II.

Anyone here care to help me on this one, I'm honestly baffled, as it would seem to this outsider that she is doing what Mary instructed her to do...

HELP>

[quote]Also, in 1960, Sister Lucy is silenced by the Holy Office. Frere Francois tells us:

"Even Father Aparicio, her former confessor, was then unable to meet her in the parlor of Coimbra. That Jesuit, whom she venerated, had left in 1938 for Brazil where he had been successively rector, master of novices, and finally provincial of the vice-province of northern Brazil. In 1960, he had returned to Portugal in order to participate on August 15 in the celebration of the centenary of the foundation of the novitiate of the Jesuits, at Soutelo. Now, Father Martins tells us, during his stay in Portugal which lasted more than a month, 'the venerable old man suffered the greatest chagrin of his life: he could not speak with Sister Lucy.'

"Certainly he had learned, from the moment of his arrival in Portugal in 1960 only the members of her family could visit her, for 'her superiors forbade her to receive any other person.' However, 'he hoped, in spite of that, to be able to speak with her.' One of his letters is a witness to that: 'Tomorrow or later, he wrote on August 7, I will go to Coimbra. I will not be able to speak with Sister Lucy because she is isolated. By order of the Holy Office in Rome, she may not communicate with anyone.'

"And on his return to Brazil, Father Aparicio stipulated to a correspondent: 'I have not been able to speak with Sister Lucy because the Archbishop could not give the permission to meet her. The conditions of isolation in which she finds herself have been imposed by the Holy See. Consequently, no one may speak with her without a license from Rome.'" [Tragedy and Triumph, p. 33][/quote]

Edited May 25, 2007 by Era Might

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 2 2004, 08:31 AM']I've been reading some materials on normally ultra Catholic sites on Sister Lucia and the supposed "gag order" on her by JP II.

Anyone here care to help me on this one, I'm honestly baffled, as it would seem to this outsider that she is doing what Mary instructed her to do...

HELP>[/quote]
Mary is not above the Pope.

Jesus gave Peter the Keys. Not Mary.

Mary is the Queen of Heaven and Earth, but on earth she submits to the person who the King put in charge.

Hope that helps.

Edited May 25, 2007 by Era Might

[Bruce S]

[quote]Mary is not above the Pope.

Jesus gave Peter the Keys. Not Mary.

Mary is the Queen of Heaven and Earth, but on earth she submits to the person who the King put in charge.[/quote]

No, not really. Getting my Catholic hat on here, and trying to get inside the Apparition mindset...

Would NOT Mary appearing FROM HEAVEN have MORE authority than a mere man sitting in the Papal chair on earth currently?

This one confuses me, either Mary does have the authority to issue commands or not, and you really can't have it both ways, at least objectively, that is how it would seem if you had to go one way or the other, not try to have it both ways....

BUT, *WHY* isn't this woman allowed to participate in Catholic circles and why does the Roman curia have to hide her and silence her at all?

Edited April 2, 2004 by Bruce S

[Hananiah]

In 1929, Mary asked the Pope to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart in union with all the bishops of the world. In 1942, Pius XII consecrated [i]the world[/i] to the her Immaculate Heart in union with all the bishops. Mary then told Sr. Lucia that this was insuffucient, and chastised Pius XII. So, in 1952, he tried it again, and consecrated Russia to her Immaculate Heart. Evidently, this was not sufficient either, since he did not include all the bishops. In 1984, John Paul II again consecrated [i]the world[/i] to her Immaculate Heart, with only a few bishops, thus including both of Pius XII's mistakes in his consecration. Sr. Lucia stated repeatedly and emphatically that this did not fulfill Our Lady's requests. Now she's saying that this did fulfill them. Something is fishy here.

[Bruce S]

I thought you guys NEVER "made mistakes" on these sort of things...this falls broadly under FAITH AND MORALS, doesn't it?

[cheap shot, SORRY, but couldn't resist...]

Now back to the question, WHY is Sister Lucia not allowed to participate publically, and why had the church cloistered this woman away all these decades?

[PS: I really have thought that the VERSION of the 3rd secret released to the public isn't the ENTIRE story, something is being covered up here, that is apparent to my, all those years of study into secret societies and how they operate gives one the uncanny ability to see WHAT ISN'T THERE, which is more often the truth with them than what is publically seen...]

Edited April 2, 2004 by Bruce S

[popestpiusx]

Bruce,
private revelations, no matter how authentic, are never within the deposit of faith. Public revelation ceased with the death of the last apostle. There can be no new binding revelations. One can say perhaps that it would b foolish to ignore the message of Fatima (or Lourdes etc etc.) but it is not a matter of the faith. By that I mean that belief in the apparition (or what was said) is not absolutely required, but permitted, and even encouraged, but not required.

[Dave]

I'd like to add that the site www.catholicism.org is hardly a bastion of Catholic orthodoxy, as they promote the errors of excommunicated priest Fr. Leonard Feeney, who said that no one but baptized Catholics may go to heaven. Also, the notion that the pope would put a gag order on Sr. Lucia sounds like the garbage that Catholic Family News would put out. That paper was started by a now-suspended priest who claims that the pope never properly consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and he also insists there are conspiracies and cover-ups galore surrounding the consecration or lack thereof.

Bruces, please read orthodox Catholic material, not the ultra-traditional carp. And by ultra-traditional, I mean the type of material that rejects papal authority.

[Jake Huether]

[quote]Would NOT Mary appearing FROM HEAVEN have MORE authority than a mere man sitting in the Papal chair on earth currently?[/quote]

No. Because Satan can come from Hell and appear as Mary from Heaven. Christ gave us a visible Human Head on Earth for a reason. It is solid and undeniable proof of what God revealed. An apperition is subject to the Church, not the other way around. For this very reason the Church was established, so that Satan could not prevail.




[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Apr 2 2004, 09:13 AM'] Bruce,
private revelations, no matter how authentic, are never within the deposit of faith.  Public revelation ceased with the death of the last apostle.  There can be no new binding revelations.  One can say perhaps that it would b foolish to ignore the message of Fatima (or Lourdes etc etc.) but it is not a matter of the faith.  By that I mean that belief in the apparition (or what was said) is not absolutely required, but permitted, and even encouraged, but not required. [/quote]
I second this.

Bruce,

Try to imagine this:

God told us what to do. The Russians know what God wants. Mary isn't going to tell Russia to do anything different. The very best she can do is appear to them adn try to convince them of what has already been said.


The Church was established to hold ALL that Christ had revealed. So, that is where the Church is at now. We have ALL that Christ wants us to have. Mary will not "fill in" anything new. She can help us understand BETTER what has already been revealed. And she has. She can request that a Pope pray more for a country. She can request that a Pope consecrate a country to her. But the Pope has the Keys.

Edited April 2, 2004 by Jake Huether

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 2 2004, 09:52 AM'] Now back to the question, WHY is Sister Lucia not allowed to participate publically, and why had the church cloistered this woman away all these decades?

[PS: I really have thought that the VERSION of the 3rd secret released to the public isn't the ENTIRE story, something is being covered up here, that is apparent to my, all those years of study into secret societies and how they operate gives one the uncanny ability to see WHAT ISN'T THERE, which is more often the truth with them than what is publically seen...] [/quote]
bruce,

i did some quick looking around to see if i could come up w/ anything, and i haven't found anything definitive yet. but, i would assume that strangers are not allowed to talk to her b/c the Church wants to ensure that this situation doesn't get even more out of hand then it already has. if the personal interpretations of different people get spread around, then the faithful can be mislead. we already have many people making claims about the third secret and putting words into sister maria lucia's mouth that are not true. so many people seem to want to get at her, that it is right of the Church to protect her and her message in such a way.

i believe that this [b][url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4267"]article[/url][/b] illustrates my point:

[quote][i]Description: An interview with Sr. Lucia conducted by Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, on November 17, 2001 in the convent of Coimbra, Portugal.[/i]

[b]Meeting with Sr. Maria Lucia [/b]

The suspicion that the Holy See did not publish the whole text of the third part of the "secret" is being reaffirmed and certain "Fatimist" movements have repeated their accusation that the Holy Father has not yet consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

It was therefore considered necessary, with the agreement of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and the Bishops of both Leiria-Fatima and Coimbra, that I meet Sr Lucia in the presence of Rev. Luis Kondor, SVD, Vice-Postulator of the cause of Bl. Francisco and Bl. Jacinta, and of the Prioress of the Carmelite Convent of St Teresa, to obtain explanations and information directly from the only surviving visionary.

The conversation that lasted for more than two hours took place on Saturday afternoon, 17 November. Sr Lucia, who will be 95 on 22 March this year, seemed in excellent form, lucid and vivacious. During the conversation, she professed her love for and devotion to the Holy Father, for whom, along with the whole Church, she very much prays. She was delighted with the distribution of her book, "Os apelos da Mensagem de Fatima" ("The Appeals of the Fatima Message"), now translated into six languages (Italian, Spanish, German, Hungarian, Polish and English), and for which she is receiving many letters of thanks.

Going on to discuss the problem of the third part of the secret of Fatima, she says that she has read attentively and meditated upon the booklet published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and confirms everything it says.

She answers those who have voiced a doubt that some part of the 'third secret' might not have been revealed: "Everything has been published, there are no more secrets." To those who are talking and writing about new revelations, she says: "There is not a grain of truth in them. If I had had new revelations, I would not have spoken of them to anyone, but would have told them directly to the Holy Father!".

She then gladly recalled her youth and the difficulties she had encountered, first in becoming a sister; but even in gestures of kindliness, as when she remembers the "holidays" in Braga in the years 1921-24, with Mrs Filomena Miranda, her Confirmation sponsor.

When asked: "What effect did the vision of 13 July have on your life before it was written down and presented to the Church?", she replied:

" I felt safe under the protection of Our Lady, who would watch carefully over the Church and the Pope", and she adds a new detail to her account of the famous prophetic vision:

"During the vision, Our Lady, shining bright, held a heart in her left hand, and in her right, a Rosary". What does the heart in Our Lady's hand mean?

"It is a symbol of love that protects and saves. It is the Mother who sees her children suffering and suffers with them, even with those who do not love her. For she wants to save them all and not to lose any of those the Lord has entrusted to her. Her Heart is a safe refuge. The devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is the means of salvation for these difficult times in the Church and in the world. Cardinal Ratzinger's reflection at the end of his comment on the third part of the "secret" is very relevant: 'My Immaculate Heart will triumph'. What does this mean? The heart open to God, purified by contemplation of God, is stronger than guns and weapons of every kind. The fiat of Mary, the word of her heart, has changed the history of the world, because it brought the Saviour into the world—because, thanks to her 'Yes', God could become man in our world and remains so for all time. The Evil One has power in this world, as we see and experience continually; he has power because our freedom continually lets itself be led away from God. But since God himself took a human heart and has thus steered man's freedom towards what is good, the freedom to choose evil no longer has the last word. From that time, this is the final word: In the world you will have trouble, but take courage, I have overcome the world" (Jn 16,33) is well founded. The message of Fatima invites us to trust in this promise".

I asked her three more questions:

"Is it true that speaking to Rev. Luigi Bianchi and Rev. José dos Santos Valinho, you cast doubt on the interpretation of the third part of the "secret"?

Sr Lucia answered: "That is not true. I fully confirm the interpretation made in the Jubilee Year".

"What have you to say about the stubborn assertions of Fr Gruner, who has been collecting signatures, asking the Pope to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary at last, as if this has never been done?".

Sr Lucia replies: "The Carmelite community has rejected the forms for the collection of signatures. I have already said that the consecration desired by Our Lady was made in 1984, and has been accepted in Heaven".

"Is it true that Sr Lucia is deeply upset by recent events, that she can no longer sleep and is praying night and day?"

Sr Lucia answers: "It is not true. How could I pray during the day if I did not rest at night? How many things they are putting in my mouth! How many things they make me seem to do! Let them read my book: in it are all the recommendations and appeals that correspond with Our Lady's wishes. Prayer and penance, together with great faith in God's power, will save the world".

[i]Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone
Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith[/i][/quote]

i hope this helps................pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Bruce S]

[quote] By that I mean that belief in the apparition (or what was said) is not absolutely required, but permitted, and even encouraged, but not required.

[/quote]

Man, that one was stutterstepping perfected! You guys have this down pat!

[i]"It is true, but may not be true, we all believe it to be true, but if it isn't true, then what we believed true, was still true, except for when it wasn't true and by the way..."[/i]

We are always right and the REAL TRUTH NEVER CHANGES!

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 2 2004, 11:46 AM']
Man, that one was stutterstepping perfected! You guys have this down pat!

[i]"It is true, but may not be true, we all believe it to be true, but if it isn't true, then what we believed true, was still true, except for when it wasn't true and by the way..."[/i]

We are always right and the REAL TRUTH NEVER CHANGES! [/quote]
Proof why this info shoudn't be out.

[Bruce S]

[quote]Proof why this info shoudn't be out....[/quote]

Off to the BLACK HOLE with Sister, huh?

Very CIA-NSA-ish if you ask me. I guess that is where the real Jesuit Oath went too....grin.

[PS- did anyone read Ron Brown's ANGELS AND SAINTS, where they had to go into the VATICAN archieves ... or the movie the RAIDERS OF THE LAST ARK, at then end, where the ARK ends up being lost to history in the US Government repository of "things that will never see the light of day?"

I have this mental vision now of Sister in that same warehouse, and the REAL 3rd Secret of Fatima in the Vatican 'NeverEverAgain" bookshelves...

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 2 2004, 01:11 PM']
Off to the BLACK HOLE with Sister, huh?

Very CIA-NSA-ish if you ask me. I guess that is where the real Jesuit Oath went too....grin.

[PS- did anyone read Ron Brown's ANGELS AND SAINTS, where they had to go into the VATICAN archieves ... or the movie the RAIDERS OF THE LAST ARK, at then end, where the ARK ends up being lost to history in the US Government repository of "things that will never see the light of day?"

I have this mental vision now of Sister in that same warehouse, and the REAL 3rd Secret of Fatima in the Vatican 'NeverEverAgain" bookshelves... [/quote]
bruce, did u read my last post? you still don't see the validity in the actions of the Church on this matter?

[Anna]

Firstly, Bruce S, Pope John Paul II did not place a gag order on Sister Lucy.
He wasn't even pope in 1960 when you claim this happened.
There have been plenty of Catholic religious who have been ordered to silence, not just Sister Lucy. Some have been Faithful religious, even later canonized saints, such as St. Pio, but others have been preaching heresies.
Either way, it is up to the Church to guard souls, and when the Church sees faithful members becoming cultish in their practices, beliefs, or followings of the sayings of a specific individual, She does have the authority to silence such an individual.

The most humble Mary, Ever Virgin, Mother of God, would never step in and try to take authority away from the Vicar of Christ.

Pax Christi. <><

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Apr 2 2004, 09:40 AM'] Mary is not above the Pope.

Jesus gave Peter the Keys. Not Mary.

Mary is the Queen of Heaven and Earth, but on earth she submits to the person who the King put in charge.

Hope that helps. [/quote]
If Mary came down to earth and requested that the Pope do something, one can safely assume that Jesus was behind it. I do not believe anyone has the authroity to disobey a command from heaven, even the Pope.