Is Human Nature Basically Good, Bad Or Neutral?

[Selah]

Yes, he did, and at the time of creation, Satan was good. He still is good, as God created him, but evil because he chose to rebel against God and condemn himself. It was no flaw on God's part, but on Satan's part.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Selah

[Winchester]

It should be good, neutral or [i]chaotic[/i].

[Mark of the Cross]

Wo/Man is born with free will. God or Jesus will call upon everyone to follow him. But Satan will taunt and tempt to lead away and destroy.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='19 August 2009 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1250717415' post='1952849']
Nope, you are not correct. I am an Eastern Catholic and I do not believe that anyone is born with a "stain of sin." The ancestral sin made Adam's descendants mortal, but not by nature sinful.

Sin is personal, not natural, and so there is no inherent "badness" in anyone.
[/quote]
I'm starting to think it's not just Eastern Christians who believe that, inasmuch as I found Pope Benedict saying the same thing... I can't source the quote, but it's in my book "The Essential Pope Benedict XVI". Almost certainly comments before he was elected pope. Italics are in the source, bold is my own.

[quote]In the Genesis story that we are considering, a further characteristic of sin is described. Sin is spoken of in general not as an abstract possibility but as a deed, as the sin of a particular person, Adam, who stands at the origin of humankind and with whom the history of sin begins. This account tells us that sin begets sin, and that, therefore, all the sins of history are interlinked. Theology refer to this state of affairs by the [b]certainly misleading and imprecise term[/b] [i]original sin[/i]. What does this mean? Nothing seems to us today to be stranger or, indeed, more absurd that to insist upon original sin, since, according to our way of thinking, guilt can only be something very personal, and God does not run a concentration camp in which one's relatives are imprisoned, because he is a liberating God of love who calls each one by name. What does [i]original sin[/i] mean, then, when we interpret it correctly?
Finding an answer to this requires nothing less than trying to understand the human person better. It must once again be stressed that no human being is closed in upon himself or herself and that no one can live of or for himself or herself alone. We receive our life not only at the moment of birth but every day from without- from others who are not ourselves but who nonetheless somehow pertain to us. Human beings have their selves not only in themselves but also outside of themselves: they live in those whom they love and in those who love them and to whom they are present. Human beings are relational, and the possess their lives- themselves- only by way of relationship. I alone am not myself, but only in and with you am I myself. To be truly a human being means to be related in love, to be [i]of[/i] and [i]for[/i]. But sin means the damaging or destruction of relationality. Sin is a rejection of relationality because it wants to make the human being a god. Sin is loss of relationship, a disturbance of relationship, and therefore, it is not restricted to the individual. When I destroy a relationship, then this event- sin- touches the other person involved in the relationship. Consequently sin is always an offense that touches others, that alters the world and damages it. To the extent that this is true, when the network of human relationships is damaged from the very beginning, then every human being enters into a world that is marked by relational damage. At the very moment when a person begins human existence, which is a good, he or she is confronted by a sin-damaged world. Each of us enters into a situation in which relationality has been hurt. Consequently each person is, from the very start, damaged in relationships and does not engage in them as he or she ought. Sin pursues the human being, and he or she capitulates to it.
But from this it is also clear that human beings alone cannot save themselves. Their innate error is precisely that they want to do this by themselves. We can only be saved- that is, free and true- when we stop wanting to be God and renounce the madness of autonomy and self-sufficiency. We can only be saved- that is, become ourselves- when we engage in the proper relationship. But our interpersonal relationships occur in the context of our utter creatureliness, and it is there that the damage lies. Since the relationship with Creation has been damaged, only the Creator himself can be our savior. We can be saved only when he from whom we have cut ourselves off takes the initiative with us and stretches out his hand to us. Only being loved is being saved, and only God's love can purify damaged human love and radically re-establish the network of relationships that have suffered from alienation. [/quote]

Edited September 9, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[Winchester]

[quote name='Cruce' date='08 September 2009 - 01:34 AM' timestamp='1252388061' post='1963197']
Did God create Satan?
[/quote]
God created Lucifer. Lucifer became "Satan", which is a title, not a name. That doesn't mean his nature was sinful.

[Slappo]

[quote name='bonkers' date='02 September 2009 - 01:52 AM' timestamp='1251881547' post='1959803']
Wouldn't it follow that if his nature is good then so would be his actions? What about Hitler, was his nature good? What is your basis for suggesting human nature is good other than god created us that way? Even that is disputable, for example, we all know our nature is to sin, and sin is evil, the opposite of good. If our nature isn't that way, yet we choose freely to sin, then our culpability is increased.
[/quote]

Bonkers, you err in that you assume our nature is to sin. Our nature however is oriented towards goodness. As St. Augustine writes in Chapter 18 of his Confessions, even sin is oriented towards what is [i]perceived[/i] to be a good. When a man steals this is an evil action, but it is compelled by a desire of a good (I.E wealth, sustenance, pleasure).

Our nature is oriented towards the good, but our nature is corrupt in that we sometimes choose a lesser good over a greater good.

[Winchester]

Try smaller words and pejoratives.

And smilies.

[Servus_Mariae]

All of creation acts in pursuit of the good, therefore all bear an essentially good nature.

However, due to the distortion of sin which has effected our will, we may desire to do sinful things. Not becuase they are bad but because of a good which resides in the action. No one kills to take life for the sake of taking a life. That's why even in the most cruel murders an investigation pursues motive (some good must have been attained is the premise for this). Even if the motive is so calloused as to simply find enjoyment in such a horrible thing...the pursuit then is pleasure which is a good...yet the action to obtain it is evil. The pursuit of good is inherent in every action...but may be distorted.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='11 September 2009 - 10:46 AM' timestamp='1252626367' post='1964613']
All of creation acts in pursuit of the good, therefore all bear an essentially good nature.

However, due to the distortion of sin which has effected our will, we may desire to do sinful things. Not becuase they are bad but because of a good which resides in the action. No one kills to take life for the sake of taking a life. That's why even in the most cruel murders an investigation pursues motive (some good must have been attained is the premise for this). Even if the motive is so calloused as to simply find enjoyment in such a horrible thing...the pursuit then is pleasure which is a good...yet the action to obtain it is evil. The pursuit of good is inherent in every action...but may be distorted.
[/quote]
There is an exception. There are mentally ill people who hurt themselves and others because they want to feel pain not pleasure. They do this driven by depression which in some cases drives the suffer to feed it rather than to overcome it.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='11 September 2009 - 12:30 AM' timestamp='1252643446' post='1964772']
There is an exception. There are mentally ill people who hurt themselves and others because they want to feel pain not pleasure. They do this driven by depression which in some cases drives the suffer to feed it rather than to overcome it.
[/quote]
This is an objective disorder, and does not reflect upon the nature of Man.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='10 September 2009 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1252626367' post='1964613']
All of creation acts in pursuit of the good, therefore all bear an essentially good nature.

However, due to the distortion of sin which has effected our will, we may desire to do sinful things. Not becuase they are bad but because of a good which resides in the action. No one kills to take life for the sake of taking a life. That's why even in the most cruel murders an investigation pursues motive (some good must have been attained is the premise for this). Even if the motive is so calloused as to simply find enjoyment in such a horrible thing...the pursuit then is pleasure which is a good...yet the action to obtain it is evil. The pursuit of good is inherent in every action...but may be distorted.
[/quote]
I like you! Will you stay??

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 September 2009 - 03:32 PM' timestamp='1252643532' post='1964774']
This is an objective disorder, and does not reflect upon the nature of Man.
[/quote]
And is not sin an objective disorder? You argued that man is by nature good, then sin like mental illness is a corruption of this state!

[Apotheoun]

Sin is not natural; instead, it is unnatural. It is a personal disease of sorts, and that is why the Church Fathers often described Christ as the [i]Great Physician[/i].


"There is only one Physician, both carnal and spiritual, born and unborn, God become man, true life in death; sprung both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then incapable of it – Jesus Christ our Lord."

+ St. Ignatios of Antioch

Edited September 11, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='11 September 2009 - 12:30 AM' timestamp='1252643446' post='1964772']
There is an exception. There are mentally ill people who hurt themselves and others because they want to feel pain not pleasure. They do this driven by depression which in some cases drives the suffer to feed it rather than to overcome it.
[/quote]

Actually I disagree. Those who suffer depression (and I know many who do) and other mental disorders still seek what is good. They find a sense of fulfillment...but in a disordered and ultimately harmful way. That's why they are considered disordered.


[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 September 2009 - 12:36 AM' timestamp='1252643802' post='1964779']
I like you! Will you stay??
[/quote]

Well God love you! Certainly I will!