havok579257 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1949586' date='Aug 15 2009, 11:44 AM']Two questions 1-Is there sin and evil in heaven? 2-Do the saved have free will?[/quote] 1. i have no idea. i have yet to go to heaven so i have no idea. All I know is those in heaven will be with God and be able to praise him and worship him for eternity. As to what heaven consists of and what it will be like, only those in heaven know for sure. Until then the best we can do is speculate at best. 2. what do you mean by saved? Saved on earth? Saved in heaven? I don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 [quote name='havok579257' post='1949703' date='Aug 15 2009, 02:25 PM']1. i have no idea. i have yet to go to heaven so i have no idea. All I know is those in heaven will be with God and be able to praise him and worship him for eternity. As to what heaven consists of and what it will be like, only those in heaven know for sure. Until then the best we can do is speculate at best.[/quote] Heaven is being in the presence of God. How can God tolerate sin in his presence. I thought this was pretty clear. I have never heard anyone say there might be sin and evil in heaven. [quote]2. what do you mean by saved? Saved on earth? Saved in heaven? I don't understand.[/quote] Saved in heaven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1949586' date='Aug 15 2009, 12:44 PM']Two questions 1-Is there sin and evil in heaven? 2-Do the saved have free will?[/quote] 1. No. 2. Yes. I would add that the saved's free will is so united with God's will that they only do His will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 [quote name='peach_cube' post='1949714' date='Aug 15 2009, 03:48 PM']1. No. 2. Yes. I would add that the saved's free will is so united with God's will that they only do His will.[/quote] Then what is the excuse for evil? God can create a scenario is which humans have free will and there is no sin or evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkaands Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1949718' date='Aug 15 2009, 02:52 PM']Then what is the excuse for evil? God can create a scenario is which humans have free will and there is no sin or evil.[/quote] Exactly. God can create a being with free will and a strong proclivity to do good. I know such people (not me). My spouse, for one. If everybody were like my spouse, the world would be a great place. We all have free will. We can decide to jump to our deaths any old time, after hurling our children first. But we don't. We have no inclination to do so. Avoid evil, work righteousness says the prophet. God could create beings who does just that. Even if they 'fell', he could create the next generation like this. He doesn't. Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1949718' date='Aug 15 2009, 04:52 PM']Then what is the excuse for evil? God can create a scenario is which humans have free will and there is no sin or evil.[/quote] I would say that God has created a scenario in which humans have free will and there is no sin or evil. It's a bit complicated to get heaven isn't it? Why? You can't get there unless you truly love God. Love that is not freely given is not love at all. We are called to love God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1949266' date='Aug 14 2009, 11:52 PM']And I do because it's not real. It's not there. I don't see Christ I see a text which tells a story about a man who dies on a cross. You don't point to Christ crucified, you point to the story. It's like saying "look at this story, isn't it nice? Now if it is true then perhaps God can relate to you, take comfort in that"[/quote] If you are comforting someone who prayed to God for something like a rape to stop, but then they only believe Christ to be a "nice little story" then there is no comfort that you can provide. Edited August 15, 2009 by peach_cube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1949704' date='Aug 15 2009, 03:31 PM']Heaven is being in the presence of God. How can God tolerate sin in his presence. I thought this was pretty clear. I have never heard anyone say there might be sin and evil in heaven. Saved in heaven[/quote] 1. i never said there was sin in heaven. i said i don't know. i don't know is completly different than saying sin is possibly in heaven. i simply have no idea what heave is like and i figure why speculate when i have no clue or doubt i could even understand it unless i was in heaven. so i just leave it up to God and whatever he has in store for heaven is good for me. 2. this is the same thing as the above question. you just repeated your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 (edited) [quote name='peach_cube' post='1949780' date='Aug 15 2009, 05:00 PM']If you are comforting someone who prayed to God for something like a rape to stop, but then they only believe Christ to be a "nice little story" then there is no comfort that you can provide.[/quote] powerful statement. i'm sure Hassan would still insist it doesn't answer the "why suffering" etc in an ultimate sense. but, it underscores, that if there is hope, it's here with what peachcube and 'era might' have mentioned so eloquently. suffering exists. it's a fact of life. take it as a premise, and move on with it already. there's hope. look at the glass half full. there's myteries involved, but trust in something bigger. that's the only way you can have hope. in the love story, God subjected his divinity, to that suffering, too. this isn't just us waxing on blinding. God gives us signs, if only we follow them. he gives us indicators, miraulous, but also in our being as mirrors of God as we are made in God's image. Edited August 15, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1949718' date='Aug 15 2009, 03:52 PM']Then what is the excuse for evil? God can create a scenario is which humans have free will and there is no sin or evil.[/quote] God wanted to make humans to have complete free wil. He didn't want us to just follow him because we are forced to. He wanted to give us a choice. To lead a good life and follow him or to do whatever we wanted. He did not want to just make us into one dimensional beings. He wanted to make us into complete beings and one who had a choice. A choice on every aspect on how to live their life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 [quote]God wanted to make humans to have complete free wil. He didn't want us to just follow him because we are forced to. He wanted to give us a choice. To lead a good life and follow him or to do whatever we wanted. He did not want to just make us into one dimensional beings. He wanted to make us into complete beings and one who had a choice. A choice on every aspect on how to live their life[/quote] But is it really free will? "You can choose to follow me or not. But if you choose not to follow me, you'll go to hell." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 (edited) [quote name='havok579257' post='1950012' date='Aug 15 2009, 07:16 PM']God wanted to make humans to have complete free wil. He didn't want us to just follow him because we are forced to. He wanted to give us a choice. To lead a good life and follow him or to do whatever we wanted. He did not want to just make us into one dimensional beings. He wanted to make us into complete beings and one who had a choice. A choice on every aspect on how to live their life.[/quote] [i]If those in heaven have free will and there is no sin or evil in heaven, then God may have a reality in which there are being with free will and there is no evil or sin in that reality[/i] Do you agree with that conditional? Edited August 15, 2009 by Hassan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 If that conditional is valid, and I don't see how it could not be as it's pretty much a tautology, then I think your case falls apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 [quote name='Selah' post='1950015' date='Aug 15 2009, 07:17 PM']But is it really free will? "You can choose to follow me or not. But if you choose not to follow me, you'll go to hell." [/quote] Do you know what free will is? Cause what you quoted is exactly free will. Just because there are consequenses to your actions does not mean it negates free will. Infact it further proves it. YOu have free will and depending upon what you choose, your have to deal with the consequenses of your actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Well, yes you could choose. But, it appears that the person is being coerced into believing out of fear. No one wants to go to hell. So, naturally, the person will choose to believe. That may be free will in some way, but the person isn't choosing because he or she wants to. They are doing it out of fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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