liseski Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295470113' post='2201889'] That is probably one of the most massive non-sequiturs I have ever seen. [/quote] I could probably think up a larger one. I didn't take much time on it. [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295470113' post='2201889'] A monopoly State is incompatible with the principle of non-aggression. [/quote] Instead of sound-bites, could you elucidate a bit? You have piqued my interest. If a democratic government is not the answer, then what is? Short of some sort of unobtainable utopia, that is...Have you a link, perhaps? [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295470113' post='2201889'] I've never read it. I have no problem with people who haven't read it. Rand and her objectivist groupies are not my cup of tea. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Well, FINALLY something we agree upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) [quote name='liseski' timestamp='1295471774' post='2201896'] Well, FINALLY something we agree upon. [/quote] Over the course of about six months I found that happening more and more every day. Edited January 19, 2011 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295472728' post='2201903'] Over the course of about six months I found that happening more and more every day. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) [quote name='liseski' timestamp='1295471774' post='2201896'] Instead of sound-bites, could you elucidate a bit? You have piqued my interest. If a democratic government is not the answer, then what is? Short of some sort of unobtainable utopia, that is...Have you a link, perhaps?[/quote] Liseski, you claimed to be a libertarian, and I honestly assumed you'd heard of the non-aggression principle. That is why I clarified that you cannot be a libertarian and not agree with the NAP/ZAP (zero aggression principle.) The non-aggression principle holds that no one may initiate aggression (whether it come in the form of force, fraud, or coercion) against another human being. Aggression is not just another word for "violence" or "force." Aggression is the [i]initiation[/i] of force or coercion against another person. It is the idea that you cannot steal something from another person, and neither can you delegate stealing to another person. The NAP is a starting point for civilized human interaction, not an utopian blueprint. I don't expect to see utopia, but I have no doubt that the State has [i]caused[/i] more violence than it has ever prevented. This video contains a decent explanation. While it does not explain every detail in terms a Catholic could, neither is it incompatible with the Catholic faith. Be sure to include God's role when you consider the concept of "self-ownership" the video speaks about. You may have to click "watch on YouTube" on the bottom right part of the black screen. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I[/media] Another resource would be Lysander Spooner's work [url="http://praxeology.net/LS-NT-6.htm"]"No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority,"[/url] as cited above. Another good one is Frederic Bastiat's [url="http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html"]"The Law."[/url] ~Sternhauser [font="Arial,Helvetica,Verdana"] [/font] Edited January 19, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295473368' post='2201913'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I[/media] [/quote] It is important to note, this video is describing the philosophy of Ron Paul (as it says in the video) - who is a Christian Libertarian who seeks limited government - who holds a senate seat! His son Rand Paul, also has been elected to the senate - Rand is the senator of Kentucky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295476981' post='2201945'] It is important to note, this video is describing the philosophy of Ron Paul (as it says in the video) - who is a Christian Libertarian who seeks limited government - who holds a senate seat! [/quote] Ron Paul is a Congressman, and he is [i]not[/i] a libertarian. He is a Constitutionalist. The video certainly does not[i] [/i]describe Ron Paul's philosophy. See 3:00 to 3:14 again. And 3:41 to 4:50. Ron Paul is the guy with the blue hat. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295489828' post='2202025'] Ron Paul is a Congressman, and he is [i]not[/i] a libertarian. He is a Constitutionalist. The video certainly does not[i] [/i]describe Ron Paul's philosophy. See 3:00 to 3:14 again. And 3:41 to 4:50. Ron Paul is the guy with the blue hat. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Wow, don't go all hostile with me. I see eye-to-eye with you on politics - less government interference is better for us. So, I may have some of my facts wrong, I am Canadian, remember - and I don't understand the American political as much as you do. Constitutionalists are Libertarians though - unless you show me the definitions showing they are completely different - because Constitutionalists say - government can't act outside these parameters, and Libertarians say - government shouldn't act in a way that interferes with a person's rights - and we get those rights by - guess what - our constitutions - so isn't Libertarians and Constitutionalists allies towards each other! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295490894' post='2202033'] Wow, don't go all hostile with me. I see eye-to-eye with you on politics - less government interference is better for us. So, I may have some of my facts wrong, I am Canadian, remember[/quote] One italicized word isn't a sign of hostility. It is a strong affirmation of a truth. [quote]and I don't understand the American political as much as you do.[/quote] It isn't about American politics. It's about politics. State politics is violence by another name. [quote]Constitutionalists are Libertarians though - unless you show me the definitions showing they are completely different - because Constitutionalists say - government can't act outside these parameters, and Libertarians say - government shouldn't act in a way that interferes with a person's rights[/quote] Constitutionalists are not libertarians. A Constitutionalist says the State may initiate aggression. A libertarian says no one may initiate aggression. [quote]- and we get those rights by - guess what - our constitutions - so isn't Libertarians and Constitutionalists allies towards each other![/quote] Our rights do not come from the dessicated skin of a sheep upon which dead men have scrawled with an ink-quill. Our rights come from God. Constitutionalists believe that agents of the State live in an alternate moral universe, where robbery (taking money from non-aggressors by force or threat of force) is not wrong for them, but is wrong for an individual who does not work for the State. Libertarians believe robbery is always wrong, no matter who commits it. ~Sternhauser Edited January 20, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1250222889' post='1948460'] I then log on to the internet which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration [/quote] Wait a minute. Al Gore didn't invent the internet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrinityFanGuyVT Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295492974' post='2202040'] One italicized word isn't a sign of hostility. It is a strong affirmation of a truth. It isn't about American politics. It's about politics. State politics is violence by another name. Constitutionalists are not libertarians. A Constitutionalist says the State may initiate aggression. A libertarian says no one may initiate aggression. Our rights do not come from the dessicated skin of a sheep upon which dead men have scrawled with an ink-quill. Our rights come from God. Constitutionalists believe that agents of the State live in an alternate moral universe, where robbery (taking money from non-aggressors by force or threat of force) is not wrong for them, but is wrong for an individual who does not work for the State. Libertarians believe robbery is always wrong, no matter who commits it. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Where are you coming up with this stuff? Yes, Constitutionalists and libertarians are different; Constitutuionalists recognize that our rights come from God but your NAP point is way off base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 [quote name='TrinityFanGuyVT' timestamp='1295644738' post='2202642'] Where are you coming up with this stuff? Yes, Constitutionalists and libertarians are different; Constitutuionalists recognize that our rights come from God but your NAP point is way off base. [/quote] I just spoke to a Constitutionalist who didn't seem to recognize that our rights come from God. And if he did, he didn't word his expression of that reality very well at all: "and we get those rights by - guess what - our constitutions." Please explain what my "NAP point" was and how it is off-base. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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