Jesus_lol Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294810338' post='2199269'] I live in Canada, and I don't like the health care system here. [/quote] our anecdotal experience is vastly different. I live in Canada, and thanks to my dad's self employment and my mum and dad's health issues, we would have been bankrupted many times over in the last couple years and living in the street. Our slow socialized medicine managed to diagnose my dad with esophageal cancer, scan him several times, get him fast tracked to the relevant medical specialists and get him in an OR with a fantastic surgeon, who performed a Gastrectomy(removing the entire stomach) with so far great success(it was only a few days ago). and it did all that in less than a month. also has had numerous ambulances come out to our place when my dad faints or mums heart goes wonky, including getting a helicopter to our semi remote island and airflifting mum out to a hospital 30 odd miles away when she had a heart attack scare. also treated me well when my body doesnt keep its end of the bargain, quick surgery, drop in doctor visits, bones x rayed, etc. All in all, Im quite pleased with it. I wasnt paying into it the last two years, not nearly enough income, but i will be now, and that is fine with me. on another note, just got a call from mum, dad is recovering well, and just stood up and walked around today, cracking jokes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) Most Canadians I encounter are satisfied or proud of their health care system. Most Canadians seem to fear American medicine. I heard an argument between a Canadian and an American, the American arguing that the Canadians would love to have our health care system if they could, which the Canadian quickly shot back that he could buy medical insurance and go to a doctor in the United States... he just doesn't want to, his medical system he finds more effective, efficient, and focused on his well-being. Dealing with American medicine with good medical insurance, which I do have, its irritating and complicated. Advocates of this version of free market medicine argue that it encourages doctors to be more competent and offer better quality of treatment. But in my opinion, it just makes doctors incompetent and lazy, because if you don't like the service your doctor gives go find another one. Doctors who really are good at what they do are so expensive that between my good insurance and co-payment, I'm not going to get to see them! Which curiously, just because they charge more doesn't make them better... medical costs in the United States are outrageous. Also dealing with medicine for my friends and family, who don't have insurance but do have jobs, it's almost impossible to find anyone who will treat them other than the SMALL socialized hospital district. We Americans, we must sure love death, because we work so hard to keep simple treatments from those in need. Edited January 12, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294815879' post='2199298'] Most Canadians I encounter are satisfied or proud of their health care system. Most Canadians seem to fear American medicine. I heard an argument between a Canadian and an American, the American arguing that the Canadians would love to have our health care system if they could, which the Canadian quickly shot back that he could buy medical insurance and go to a doctor in the United States... he just doesn't want to, his medical system he finds more effective, efficient, and focused on his well-being. Dealing with American medicine with good medical insurance, which I do have, its irritating and complicated. Advocates of this version of free market medicine argue that it encourages doctors to be more competent and offer better quality of treatment. But in my opinion, it just makes doctors incompetent and lazy, because if you don't like the service your doctor gives go find another one. Doctors who really are good at what they do are so expensive that between my good insurance and co-payment, I'm not going to get to see them! Which curiously, just because they charge more doesn't make them better... medical costs in the United States are outrageous. Also dealing with medicine for my friends and family, who don't have insurance but do have jobs, it's almost impossible to find anyone who will treat them other than the SMALL socialized hospital district. We Americans, we must sure love death, because we work so hard to keep simple treatments from those in need. [/quote] In the US if you are very poor or very rich you can get relatively good treatment, but it you are middle-class you are screwed. For example, my cousin with a broken foot is advised to get PT after 6 weeks in a cast. However her insurance will not cover it and the PT is $160 a session for 3x a week, so needless to say she won't be going. And she has relatively good insurance.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1294817419' post='2199301']but it you are middle-class you are screwed.[/quote]I wish someone explained that to me sooner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294815879' post='2199298'] Most Canadians I encounter are satisfied or proud of their health care system. Most Canadians seem to fear American medicine. I heard an argument between a Canadian and an American, the American arguing that the Canadians would love to have our health care system if they could, which the Canadian quickly shot back that he could buy medical insurance and go to a doctor in the United States... he just doesn't want to, his medical system he finds more effective, efficient, and focused on his well-being. Dealing with American medicine with good medical insurance, which I do have, its irritating and complicated. Advocates of this version of free market medicine argue that it encourages doctors to be more competent and offer better quality of treatment. But in my opinion, it just makes doctors incompetent and lazy, because if you don't like the service your doctor gives go find another one. Doctors who really are good at what they do are so expensive that between my good insurance and co-payment, I'm not going to get to see them! Which curiously, just because they charge more doesn't make them better... medical costs in the United States are outrageous. Also dealing with medicine for my friends and family, who don't have insurance but do have jobs, it's almost impossible to find anyone who will treat them other than the SMALL socialized hospital district. We Americans, we must sure love death, because we work so hard to keep simple treatments from those in need. [/quote] I would prefer a two-tier healthcare system, and one that has some government regulation. Like, would it be so bad to have paid cancer treatement hospitals, but by law, all profits are turned into research grants to come up with better cancer treatments? How about heart attack and stroke hositials. Sure, you can have the public healthcare system right beside it, but why is it illegal in Canada to create paid hospitals, if we regulate them for speciality treatments? I don't think it is fair, and I actually think it is unconstitutional that the government decides how I get healthcare, and I have no choice in the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294815879' post='2199298'] Advocates of this version of free market medicine argue that it encourages doctors to be more competent and offer better quality of treatment. But in my opinion, it just makes doctors incompetent and lazy, because if you don't like the service your doctor gives go find another one. [/quote] Are you positing that a [i]monopoly[/i] on your business makes doctors (and State workers) competent and industrious? I know that a monopoly on my business means I have absolutely no recourse to another business, and they have zero economic incentive to treat me well. The idea behind the free market is just that: it is unrestrained by any outside force, outside of cases of force, fraud, and coercion. What you see when you look around you is not a free market. It is an interventionist market, with prices driven up and quality driven down by State interference. Medical malpractice insurance rates, for example, are extremely high in great part because of greedy individuals and the lawyers who egg them on. Doctors are overwhelmed with Medicare participants and others, who see a doctor whenever they get a sniffle, because, well, they [i]can[/i]! The existence of the AMA in its current role doesn't help things, either. In America, we pay about $1700 more for a car made in Japan than we would if it were not for tariffs, and about $2400 more for an American-made car. The State subsidizes shoddy workmanship and poor economic stewardship on the part of American companies by inflicting monetary penalties on anyone who would dare to offer a better product. ~Sternhauser Edited January 13, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 the AMA doesn't allow more doctors, despite tons of qualified people. at its most fundamental level, medical practice is just smart people, and cheap pills, but the system doesn't allow competition to drive down costs of doctors etc. even if we had costs lower, that doesnt mean that everyone would have rasonable access to healthcare. which means we have to have systems like medicare and medicaid, or more preferably single payer. that's the way capitalism works... people get thrown to the street, sometimes literally. like the homeless guys they kick out and drop off at hte shelters with IV's still in their arm. i could go on and on about how our system is broke, and evecn how other countries who are 'socialized' do it better, and not just because it's too socialized or to unsocialized, meaning socialism, but because it's a freaky hybrid of both, and our leaders are too incompetent to do anything that actually would make sense. saying we need more free market, other than in terms of more doctors and some other places, is not the solution by far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liseski Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294890212' post='2199545'] I would prefer a two-tier healthcare system, and one that has some government regulation. Like, would it be so bad to have paid cancer treatement hospitals, but by law, all profits are turned into research grants to come up with better cancer treatments? How about heart attack and stroke hositials. Sure, you can have the public healthcare system right beside it, but why is it illegal in Canada to create paid hospitals, if we regulate them for speciality treatments? I don't think it is fair, and I actually think it is unconstitutional that the government decides how I get healthcare, and I have no choice in the matter. [/quote] because not all of us can pay... and because it promotes queue-jumping. I like the triage system just fine, thanks. Edited January 13, 2011 by liseski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 [quote name='liseski' timestamp='1294946992' post='2199726'] because not all of us can pay... and because it promotes queue-jumping. I like the triage system just fine, thanks. [/quote] Two-Tier health care means that we continue to have the free public health care, which would take care of all those needs, but beside it, there could be paid for speciality hospitials - also regulated by the government - that would take all the profits from the individuals who want to pay for it and put it into research for the conditions they are treating - like cancer, heart attacks, strokes, spinal injuries, and many other things that desperately need funding right now. So, you don't have to pay for the treatment at those speciality hospitals, but wouldn't it be great if you had the option if you could afford it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294960697' post='2199817'] Two-Tier health care means that we continue to have the free public health care, which would take care of all those needs, [/quote] There is no such thing as free public healthcare. Wealth is taken from some, by force or the threat of force, and it is redistributed. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1294933587' post='2199638'] saying we need more free market, other than in terms of more doctors and some other places, is not the solution by far. [/quote] We need more people with guns redistributing wealth, not voluntary cooperation and charity. That is what you are advocating, whether or not you recognize it. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liseski Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294960824' post='2199818'] There is no such thing as free public healthcare. Wealth is taken from some, by force or the threat of force, and it is redistributed. ~Sternhauser [/quote] by means of taxes - which I do not resent paying. and income tax is taken off everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 [quote name='liseski' timestamp='1294960998' post='2199822'] by means of taxes - which I do not resent paying.[/quote] What is taxation, liseski, in its essence? [quote]and income tax is taken off everyone.[/quote] Does that make it . . . "free?" ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liseski Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Obviously not. I do not mind paying for my public health care. I don't think I ever implied that is was free. I was responding to the statement "...Wealth is taken from some, by force or the threat of force..." Money is taken from all, by means of law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='liseski' timestamp='1294961399' post='2199827'] Money is taken from all, by means of law.[/quote] That is the essence of taxation? ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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