Does Prayer Actually Work?

[Hassan]

I knew a girl whose friend, once a devout Christian, lost her faith after her prayers went unanswered.

Or specifically her prayers while she was being violently raped (I'll let you guess what her request was) went unanswered.

God is our heavenly Father. In fact I'm told the Aramaic Jesus uses to describe him could more accurately be translated as "daddy" a term of close affection. And like any good daddy our requests-like her sobbing pleas that it would stop-must sometimes go unanswered. But we must remember it's for our own good.






I'll try to quote Aquinas from memory, and Rexi can tell me how close I am.

"The only way God, in his goodness, could permit evil to exist is if his omnipotence were such that he could bring goodness even out of evil.

When I was a Catholic that girl challenged my insistence on the power of prayer by asking about her best friend's desperate pleas that God would deliver her from her rapist. Like a good Dervish I quoted that line from Aquinas (More accurately, I'm sure than I just did here).

She seemed to be filled with righteous indignation that I would dare propose such an empty answer. While I did whore my conscience out for the defense of the faith, and spoke Aquinas' word with solemnity, the truth is that I was embarrassed by my response. Or rather shocked at my own audacity.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Hassan

[Saint Therese]

Of course I believe that prayer "works". Because that's what [i][b]Jesus[/b][/i] said: Ask and it will be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you.
But prayer isn't magic. And sometimes God does answer our prayers, but not right away.
There's a saying: Prayer doesn't change God's mind, it changes us.
Maybe real faith is trusting in God no matter what the answer to your prayer is?

Edited August 14, 2009 by Saint Therese

[QuoteMan]

God helps us even when we can't see it. He can send help in any way he wants. Just look at this (it's been used one million times): There's a flood moving through a city, a man is sitting inside his home, and not leaving because he says "God will save me, for I have prayed to him." Eventually, the police come by, they tell him, "Hurry, get into the car with us!" The man replies "God will save me, for I have prayed to him." So the police leave him. By now, thw water has risen to the second floor of the house. A man on a moterboat comes by the house, and says "Hurry, hop on!". The man replies "God will save me, for I have prayed to him." So the moterboat man leaves. The water has now risen to the roof of the house, and the man is sitting on top. A helicoptor comes by, and drops a rope ladder down to the man on the roof. The man says yet again "God will save me, for I have prayed to him." The helicoptor leaves. The man drowns. In Heaven, the man says to God "I prayed to you, so that you would save me, yet you let me die!" God answerd "Did I not send you three chances to live? I sent the police, the man on the moterboat, and the helicoptor. Yet you didn't take my help.


Even if we can't see it, God will always help us if we pray.

[Kitty]

What about people who die needlessly, like children, who have supposedly never sinned?

The truth is, no one can really say if prayer does anything because we don't know if there is a heaven or hell, and we don't know if we'll be sitting up there going "oh, I get why that prayer wasn't answered."

And what about murderers who kill children and adults alike and get away with it, leaving families in anguish? How is "the greater good" leaving people in misery and pain?

Sorry, this is just something that I have not gotten over (and never will) and I'm very bitter about it. I started doubting God's existance 4 years ago and it's gone downhill ever since.

[Hassan]

I was mistaken. Aquinas was Quoting Augustine

[i]Article 3. Whether God exists?
Objection 1. It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word "God" means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.

Objection 2. Further, it is superfluous to suppose that what can be accounted for by a few principles has been produced by many. But it seems that everything we see in the world can be accounted for by other principles, supposing God did not exist. For all natural things can be reduced to one principle which is nature; and all voluntary things can be reduced to one principle which is human reason, or will. Therefore there is no need to suppose God's existence.

On the contrary, It is said in the person of God: "I am Who am." (Exodus 3:14)

I answer that, The existence of God can be proved in five ways.

The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence — which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.

The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.

Reply to Objection 1. [b]As Augustine says (Enchiridion xi): "Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil." This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good. [/b]

Reply to Objection 2. Since nature works for a determinate end under the direction of a higher agent, whatever is done by nature must needs be traced back to God, as to its first cause. So also whatever is done voluntarily must also be traced back to some higher cause other than human reason or will, since these can change or fail; for all things that are changeable and capable of defect must be traced back to an immovable and self-necessary first principle, as was shown in the body of the Article. [/i]

[lost_in_this_world]

sometimes i think prayer doesn't work so i dont bother....but then i see a difference in when i do pray. not all my prayers are answered when i want them to be and i think that is the most frustrating thing ever! if i get what i want great if i dont then it stinks but at least tell me now lol anyway i think prayer works but i have my days of doubting that it does.

[Fidei Defensor]

I think that prayer is in the realm of the unprovable. Can't prove it works, can't prove it doesn't.

It's best to let people do what they think they should. It can't hurt. Unless they do something like withhold medical treatment and rely on prayer alone. Then it hurts.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1948359' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:22 PM']Inspired by Hassan's thread in the Lame board, I thought it could be a Lame-less (?) topic here.

People who pray/are prayed for by someone else are just as likely to die in an accident than people who do not pray or who are not prayed for by someone. Therefore, prayer doesn't really do anything. It is just a way to lift people's spirits when there really is no hope, and it's a way for people to feel like they are "helping" the person out.

What's the purpose of prayer? Does someone actually hear prayers? If they do, do they care? Does prayer work?[/quote]

The purpose of prayer is not to "get" things. The purpose of prayer is to have a relationship. Say you lived far away from your mother. If you call her once a week to talk, would you say the phone calls "didn't work" if after the call she doesn't send you money or a care package or a big juicy apple pie that you asked for? No! Or hopefully not, if one doesn't treat one's relationships as revenue streams.

I'm not sure what people expect. On the day of baptism is God supposed to wrap the new baby Christian in a special rubber suit that will prevent car accidents and falls? Is the Holy Spirit supposed to be like a body guard, who sends two huge angels to beat people up if they try to assault me or rape me? Or no - maybe when I pray, the saints should come down from Heaven and inject me with a special serum that will prevent my blood streams carrying infection and my cells from mutating or dying (which happens eventually with all organisms). Because after all I asked! Really, really hard! And if He doesn't do what I expect then He must not exist! After all, I prayed, so why should I suffer like the heathens do... Where's my miracle...

Regina Spektor just came out with a new album and this thread reminds me in some ways of the lyrics from "Laughing With"

[quote]God can be funny
When told he'll give you money if you just pray the right way
And when presented like a genie
Who does magic like Houdini
Or grants wishes like Jiminy Cricket and Santa Claus

God can be so hilarious
Ha ha
Ha ha[/quote]

I have known people who lost their faith in God because x didn't happen. And sometimes x was something really important, like a new job, or saving the life of a child, or freedom from an abusive relationship. The problem for these people is not that they don't believe in God, the problem is that they WANT to believe in magic.

[tinytherese]

If prayer truly is sometihng that cannot be proven if it works or not then why not just do it anyway?

[thessalonian]

Prayer ALWAYS has positive effects when done in sincerity. Many times however he cures are spiritual and this medicine cannot measure. But one thing that people miss is that "miracles" don't always seem miraculous to us. Prayers bring about medical breakthroughs in the past that help people to be cured or to live better lives. But I have had prayers answered directly. One case was when my wife and I married and we wanted the three boys from her previous marriage baptized but they needed their anti-catholic dad's permission. No way. Well I prayed the rosary for him daily for about 4 months. Two of those days I did not pray for him and he called her up and railed about the CC on those days but not on the others when I did pray for him. When time came to tell him about the baptisms he rolled over like a lamb.

When I was a baby my family needed furniture really bad. My mother prayed to St. Raymond and on the feast of St. Raymond my brother Raymond stepped on something in the swimming hole in the river that went by our house. It was a box of silverware that he still has today. Very nice stuff. Turns out there was an ox cart trail that went over that spot in the river back in the early 1900's. Now this illustrates my point above a bit. Was it miraculous? In a sense it was all natural occurances. But God brought about the supernatural from it.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1948828' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:01 PM']If prayer truly is sometihng that cannot be proven if it works or not then why not just do it anyway?[/quote]
Because I don't want to.

Besides, I'd rather beg my tree for gifts and treasures. You can't prove he won't give them to me.

Edited August 14, 2009 by fidei defensor

[Lil Red]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948837' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:16 PM']Because I don't want to.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
at least you're honest.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948837' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:16 PM']Besides, I'd rather beg my tree for gifts and treasures. You can't prove he won't give them to me.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
do you think that everyone that prays is asking for gifts and treasures?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1948843' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:26 PM']+J.M.J.+
do you think that everyone that prays is asking for gifts and treasures?[/quote]
No. I believe that most people who pray are praying for legitimate and honest causes.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948846' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:31 PM']No. I believe that most people who pray are praying for legitimate and honest causes.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
can i ask why you would phrase it like that then?