Francisco Franco

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1947927' date='Aug 13 2009, 04:57 AM']and one of my favorite (if not most favorite) political leaders aside from the canonized Catholic monarchs. But that really needs its own thread I think.[/quote]

[Fidei Defensor]

How much do you actually know about him, besides his catholicism?

[homeschoolmom]

Franco?

[iheartjp2]

Any politician who would take away people's personal freedoms is a no-go in my book. Dictatorships, Catholic or not, are morally opposed to the teachings of Christ.

[Resurrexi]

To his Excellency Francisco Franco Bahamonde, Head of State of Spain

Your Excellency:

I wish to add my sincerest personal congratulation to the many you have received on the occasion of the promulgation of the Fundamental Principles.

My forced absence from our homeland in service of God and souls, far from weakening my love for Spain, has, if it were possible, increased it. From the perspective of the eternal city of Rome, I have been able to see better than ever the beauty of that especially beloved daughter of the church which is my homeland, which the Lord has so often used as an instrument for the defense and propagation of the holy, Catholic faith in the world.

Although alien to any political activity, I cannot help but rejoice as a priest and Spaniard that the Chief of State’s authoritative voice should proclaim that, “The Spanish nation considers it a badge of honor to accept the law of God according to the one and true doctrine of the Holy Catholic Church, inseparable faith of the national conscience which will inspire its legislation.” It is in fidelity to our people’s Catholic tradition that the best guarantee of success in acts of government, the certainty of a just and lasting peace within the national community, as well as the divine blessing for those holding positions of authority, will always be found.

I ask God our Lord to bestow upon your Excellency with every sort felicity and impart abundant grace to carry out the grave mission entrusted to you.

Please accept, Excellency, the expression of my deepest personal esteem and be assured of my prayers for all your family.

Most devotedly yours in the Lord,
Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer
Rome, May 23, 1958

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1948207' date='Aug 13 2009, 04:36 PM']To his Excellency Francisco Franco Bahamonde, Head of State of Spain

Your Excellency:

I wish to add my sincerest personal congratulation to the many you have received on the occasion of the promulgation of the Fundamental Principles.

My forced absence from our homeland in service of God and souls, far from weakening my love for Spain, has, if it were possible, increased it. From the perspective of the eternal city of Rome, I have been able to see better than ever the beauty of that especially beloved daughter of the church which is my homeland, which the Lord has so often used as an instrument for the defense and propagation of the holy, Catholic faith in the world.

Although alien to any political activity, I cannot help but rejoice as a priest and Spaniard that the Chief of State’s authoritative voice should proclaim that, “The Spanish nation considers it a badge of honor to accept the law of God according to the one and true doctrine of the Holy Catholic Church, inseparable faith of the national conscience which will inspire its legislation.” It is in fidelity to our people’s Catholic tradition that the best guarantee of success in acts of government, the certainty of a just and lasting peace within the national community, as well as the divine blessing for those holding positions of authority, will always be found.

I ask God our Lord to bestow upon your Excellency with every sort felicity and impart abundant grace to carry out the grave mission entrusted to you.

Please accept, Excellency, the expression of my deepest personal esteem and be assured of my prayers for all your family.

Most devotedly yours in the Lord,
Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer
Rome, May 23, 1958[/quote]

He's a saint and a priest. So what? He's not the magisterium and if he were, his sainthood and his ordination don't make him right. I appreciate that you hold Catholicism in such high esteem that you would like to see it be made a state religion, but above Catholicism itself, I love the freedom of religion because it not only makes others with whom I disagree free to practice their faiths, it also makes me free to practice mine.

Aside from Catholicism, do you know what his other policies were? I've looked at both wikipedia (I know, your favorite website) and conservapedia (a conservative alternative to the former) and from what I see, he doesn't look like anyone I would want to live under. What of those whose families weren't members of gentry? What of Jews or those of African descent? How did he treat them? In general, I just don't like dictatorships because they take away from the freedom and the well-being of EVERYONE and give privilege (but not freedom) to a select few.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948169' date='Aug 13 2009, 03:56 PM']How much do you actually know about him, besides his catholicism?[/quote]

I know enough to believe that what is said of him is unfair and inaccurate. He isn't perfect, but his mistakes are far less than what many are led to believe. I believe he had the support of popes and did what he could to the best of his ability to provide stability to his country.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1948202' date='Aug 13 2009, 04:29 PM']Any politician who would take away people's personal freedoms is a no-go in my book. Dictatorships, Catholic or not, are morally opposed to the teachings of Christ.[/quote]

Would you include the sainted holy monarchs in this "no-go"?

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1948215' date='Aug 13 2009, 04:45 PM']Would you include the sainted holy monarchs in this "no-go"?[/quote]

I said that anyone who would take away people's personal freedoms are a no-go. If any of the "sainted holy monarchs" ever did that, then yes, they would be included. Just because they're Catholic and just because they're saints doesn't mean I MUST agree with the way that they ruled. Personally, I prefer democracy because it gives power to the people who alone can give consent to whom by which they're governed.

Edited August 13, 2009 by iheartjp2

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1948214' date='Aug 13 2009, 03:44 PM']I know enough to believe that what is said of him is unfair and inaccurate. He isn't perfect, but his mistakes are far less than what many are led to believe. I believe he had the support of popes and did what he could to the best of his ability to provide stability to his country.[/quote]
Some is, some isn't. There is no denying that many died under his regime, however.

[iheartjp2]

I like to put out there that Catholic thrones and principalities have fallen. God isn't obligated to preserve an earthly government simply because it's Catholic. If we were to be living under a Catholic monarchy/dictatorship/whathaveyou and there were to be a shift in power, in which direction would the authorities attitude on religion in general go? We see that in England, Catholics were persecuted because of a simple shift in power. The mistake that one makes when they think that a state would be so much better if it were a Catholic theocracy is that they don't think about the entire outcome. There could be an uprising and a huge take-over that would involved the slaughtering, banishment, and ultimate suppression of Catholicism. Freedom of religion protects everyone and a democracy ensures that the voice of the people is heard and that they're God-given freedoms remain intact. That's why America was founded. Who needs the example of 20'th century Spain?

As for Fran Fran, I don't really care what his policies were because freedom wasn't one of them. It's great that he was Catholic. It's not so great that his idea of government yielded little to human rights.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1948223' date='Aug 13 2009, 04:54 PM']I said that anyone who would take away people's personal freedoms are a no-go. If any of the "sainted holy monarchs" ever did that, then yes, they would be included. Just because they're Catholic and just because they're saints doesn't mean I MUST agree with the way that they ruled. Personally, I prefer democracy because it gives power to the people who alone can give consent to whom by which they're governed.[/quote]

Fair enough. Could I ask, would this opinion be based somewhat on Vatican II? I'm not going to argue that, just trying to see where we're coming from. I consider myself a libertarian mostly if I were to label my political position. But that is for America which is not a primarily Catholic nation. I do believe that error has no inherent rights and that in a vastly, primarily Catholic nation many certain safeguards can and should be put in place to protect its Catholic population from the errors of the non-Catholic minority.

As for Franco, I do believe he was simply exercising to the best of his ability his obedience and submission to the Pope. I have to find a good source but I remember reading how, despite his strong stance against non-Catholic freedoms he did come to allow non-Catholics certain freedoms after I think around 1968 solely due to the request of pope Paul VI. I personally disagree with him bowing to this particular pressure, but I think it shows his obedience to the Church. His fight against religious freedoms was lauded by Pope Pius XII and then he switched gears a bit and allowed certain freedoms when asked to by Pope Paul VI.

Edited August 14, 2009 by goldenchild17

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948232' date='Aug 13 2009, 05:06 PM']Some is, some isn't. There is no denying that many died under his regime, however.[/quote]

I would question the exact statistics. I think the numbers are perhaps lower than popularly believed. Secondly, I do believe that some wars can be justified and people dying for it. I believe Franco was far more merciful to his opponents than vice versa who were bordering on barbaric.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1948324' date='Aug 13 2009, 06:56 PM']Fair enough. Could I ask, would this opinion be based somewhat on Vatican II? I'm not going to argue that, just trying to see where we're coming from.

[color="#FF0000"]No. My opinion is based on what I believe a government should be to its people, that being its servant. I honestly believe that the American government, with all its flaws, is the greatest government on the face of the Earth because the spirit of its founding was for it to be a representative of the people, rather than the "father". We human beings, the crown of God's creation, and our dignity maintains that we have certain rights, not just those of us who believe everything that our creator has revealed, but ALL of us.[/color]

I consider myself a libertarian mostly if I were to label my political position. But that is for America which is not a primarily Catholic nation. I do believe that error has no inherent rights and that in a vastly, primarily Catholic nation many certain safeguards can and should be put in place to protect its Catholic population from the errors of the non-Catholic minority.

[color="#FF0000"]Ideas in themselves have no "rights" as they were. We as human beings have the rights to hold whatever views we wish to hold in accord with our free will. This isn't to say that error isn't error; error is error and truth is truth. Whether or not one abides by it is his choice to make and it shouldn't be abridged insofar as it doesn't take one's right to life, liberty, or persuit of happiness. I'm not a believer that the Church is responsible for making sure everyone does everything right. It is the Church's responsibility to teach the truth, to harbor the believers of the truth to our home in heaven, and to estrange members of its body who are in positions of authority who openly refuse to do so (ie. excommunication) until they recant (and with the hope that they do). We are all given the responsibility to renounce evil once we've come to the knowledge of what is evil in the first place. This is no one else's responsibility.[/color]

As for Franco, I do believe he was simply exercising to the best of his ability his obedience and submission to the Pope. I have to find a good source but I remember reading how, despite his strong stance against non-Catholic freedoms he did come to allow non-Catholics certain freedoms after I think around 1968 solely due to the request of pope Paul VI.

[color="#FF0000"]We have certain rights because of our humanity whether or not a dictator gives them to us. He violated those rights when he refused to give them in the first place. And the giving of "certain rights" is yet an abridgement of their full rights. You see, I'm a believer in equal protection under the law. [/color]

I personally disagree with him bowing to this particular pressure, but I think it shows his obedience to the Church. His fight against religious freedoms was lauded by Pope Pius XII and then he switched gears a bit and allowed certain freedoms when asked to by Pope Paul VI.

[color="#FF0000"]Why would you disagree with him allowing non-Catholics certain rights that belonged to Catholics? Clearly Pope Pius XII was wrong to praise the lack of respect that he had for the humanity of the non-Catholics in Spain. If God himself sends rain to fall on the just and the unjust, then it doesn't make sense that his representative would praise the unqual protection that non-Catholics had under the law in Spain. He was wrong, plain and simple.[/color][/quote]

[goldenchild17]

Ok I see what you're saying. I disagree with Religious Freedom in a Catholic nation. I don't believe that in a Catholic nation that non-Catholics should be permitted to publicly promote/practice their faith. In private, fine do whatever you like. But not publicly where it may corrupt the faithful.

I don't think we'll be able to agree regarding Franco if we disagree on this point. Though it should be noted that Pius XII congratulated Franco on his victory and it seems supported him:

"With great joy we address you, dearest sons of Catholic Spain, to express our paternal congratulations for the gift of peace and victory, with which God has chosen to crown the Christian heroism of your faith and charity ... As a pledge of the bountiful grace which you will receive from the Immaculate Virgin and the Apostle james, patrons of Spain ... we give to you, our dear sons of Catholic Spain, to the Head of State and his illustrious Government, to the zealous Episcopate and its self-denying clergy, to the heroic combatants and to all the faithful, our apostolic benediction."

Pius XII in his telegram to Francisco Franco, April 1st, just about four weeks after ascending the supreme pontificate: "By lifting our hearts to God we together with your Excellency give thanks for the much desired victory of Catholic Spain. We hope that this precious land, now that peace has finally been attained, will return to the old Catholic traditions that made it so great. We grant your Excellency and the entire noble Spanish people our apostolic blessing."

Edited August 14, 2009 by goldenchild17