The Consequences Of Once Saved Always Saved

[tinytherese]

Dang Protestantism is confusing.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1947244' date='Aug 12 2009, 05:36 PM']With all due to respect, I have yet to find a Protestant with the same beliefs as the founder of Protestantism. The beliefs Luther had and the beliefs a large majority of Protestants have these days are fairly different. Why the difference? Who decided that difference? Sacred Scripture or did somebody decid that Sacred Scripture said something different? Sacred Scripture is a record. We look at the record and come up with what it means. Sacred Scripture doesn't say that it is self-interpreting. Even then that would self-defeating.[/quote]

Problem is, these concerns you bring up are not viewed as concerns to most Protestants. I think you fail to give human intellect and the grace of God enough credit: even without the guidance of Sacred Tradition, there are certain bounds to which Scripture (and any form of literature) can be interpreted in a logical manner. Approaching Scripture with pre-conceived ideas and trying to "read into" a passage what you want it to say is poor scholarship. Even in the midst of disagreement, there is a consistency about how to study Scripture.


[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1947244' date='Aug 12 2009, 05:36 PM']I would ask you what Protestantism actually is and have you define their doctrines but then the next person would move your wording around and change it slightly and I would have an official source to prove them wrong. It would be your words against the others.[/quote]

There are beliefs and doctrines that all Protestants agree to: the Apostle's Creed (even though "hell" and "catholic" are debated by some), the "Five Solas," the mystical Body of Christ including all believers and peoples saved by grace, the necessity of Baptism and repentance, practice of Holy Communion in some form, obedience to one's ecclessial authority... those come to mind right now.


[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1947260' date='Aug 12 2009, 05:54 PM']No point in doing so. Sure you can be good......but honestly they teach faith alone and then all of a sudden works matter. Is that contradicting?[/quote]

No. Works always matter, but they must be the fruit of faith.


[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1947244' date='Aug 12 2009, 05:36 PM']If their only authority really was Sacred Scripture in of itself, they wouldn't disagree so much......right?[/quote]

You would think, but if that were so, we wouldn't need Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium. Considering they only have Scripture and the grace of God to guide them, most Protestants do pretty well at guiding their rafts relatively near the mother ship. Maybe that says more about the love of God than man's own abilities.

[thessalonian]

"No. Works always matter, but they must be the fruit of faith. "

Actually it goes both ways. Faith should produce works. Works are done by grace in response to faith and in turn works increase our faith according to the Catechism. I think it more correct to say that works and faith are a product of grace in the Catholic realm. Works are not completely done by our faith. We need actual grace as well. Just faith does not produce works or all who say "Lord, Lord" would do them.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1947237' date='Aug 12 2009, 04:32 PM'][I don't understand what point you're getting at. Yes, Calvinists believe the elect will be saved regardless of their faults and sins, but you're ignoring everything they also teach about modeling one's life after Christ, repenting from sin, bearing the fruits of the Spirit, etc. You need to evaluate Calvinism as a whole rather than taking a single teaching out of its context.[/quote]

If I ever start a thread on Calvinism, I'll do that. Thanks for the suggestion.

[quote]If you believe Catholicism is the most logical position, why use bad logic against Calvinism?[/quote]

Here's what I wrote about Calvin :

QUOTE: This concept [OSAS] was refined by John Calvin in his doctrine of the "Perseverance of the Saints." END QUOTE

[quote]And the alleged consequences of OSAS are not taught by Calvinism[/quote]

Did I say they were? Uh uh. My only mention of Calvinism was to post the definition of 'Perseverance of the Saints.'

[quote]Their sole authority is Scripture, which is precisely why there are so many contradictory views within Protestantism. Why present them as believing things they do not profess? This only creates more confusion, and in an actual debate, sets up an all-too-easy rebuttal for them. Besides, it isn't ethical to knowingly misrepresent another person's beliefs.[/quote]

Protestants claim their sole authority is Scripture Alone, but it is [i][u]not[/u][/i] Scripture Alone – that is, words on a page. It is their own [b][i]interpretation[/i][/b] of those words. Each person, guided – so they say -- by the Holy Spirit, has the authority to interpret the Scriptures for himself. The problem is that they are guided to thousands of conflicting and competing interpretations.

I say again, "the ultimate authority in Protestantism is a man and his Bible." That's where the buck stops.

Peace be with you, Katholikos
former Protestant, agnostic, atheist

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1948240' date='Aug 13 2009, 07:15 PM']"No. Works always matter, but they must be the fruit of faith. "

Actually it goes both ways. Faith should produce works. Works are done by grace in response to faith and in turn works increase our faith according to the Catechism. I think it more correct to say that works and faith are a product of grace in the Catholic realm. Works are not completely done by our faith. We need actual grace as well. Just faith does not produce works or all who say "Lord, Lord" would do them.[/quote]

Since all Christians believe in salvation by grace alone, I think ultimately all of us must agree that faith and good works are together gifts of grace. Genuine faith is inseparable from grace.