The Consequences Of Once Saved Always Saved

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1944857' date='Aug 9 2009, 10:36 PM']Hitler was raised Roman Catholic. So I don't think he would be viewed as saved in the first place.

Is that so different than what you all believe? Couldn't Hitler be in heaven if he genuinely and sincerely repented of his deeds?

Really I don't see how either is just. I know holocaust survivors and really I don't see how even God has a right to forgive Hitler or any of those sadistic monsters for the horrors they inflicted on those poor people. It implies the sins he committed were against God.[/quote]

Hitler was raised in a Catholic family but rejected the Catholic Church and Christianity in general.

The Catholic Church teaches that every sin has consequences. The sin may be forgiven but the consequences remain until discharged by some action on the penitent's part -- through restitution, restoration, almsgiving, fasting, or some other way. This is called the temporal penalty (punishment) due to sin.

If one dies without having expiated all of the penalties due to one's sins, yet one's sins have been forgiven, the soul undergoes purgation to prepare it for entrance into heaven, where nothing unclean can enter. This purification of the soul after death is called Purgatory by the Church -- from the Latin [i]purgare[/i], to cleanse, to purify.

Nobody skates. If Hitler repented and God forgave him, he'd still have to do time in Purgatory. I would expect that Hitler and a few bad Popes, if they are not in hell, will be in Purgatory until the end of time.

Purgatory is a very logical and consoling doctrine.

Peace, Katholikos

[Hassan]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1944975' date='Aug 9 2009, 11:20 PM']Hitler was raised in a Catholic family but rejected the Catholic Church and Christianity in general.[/quote]


I simply meant that as he was raised Roman Catholic I don't think many Southern Baptists would consider him to have been saved (that is he couldn't fall from grace as he never was in a state of grace). I didn't mean to imply that he was a practicing Roman Catholic. Sorry if I wasn't clear in how I phrased that.

I know about purgatory, but thank you that was a very clear explanation of the doctrine.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Hassan

[Archaeology cat]

ex Southern Baptist here.

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1944398' date='Aug 9 2009, 11:02 PM']Ex Presbyterian here. When this topic came up in the circles I ran in, the common cop-out answer was, "Well, they were probably never saved to begin with." Because, of course, how could a person transformed by the Holy Spirit ever do anything as monstrous as this? Clearly they must not have been saved in the first place.[/quote]
Yep, pretty much what I was told, too.

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1944969' date='Aug 10 2009, 05:16 AM']Heard that before too. What I wonder is where the line is between monstrous acts unsaved and monstrous acts saved. They point to verses that run along the lines of "you will know by their fruits" but that is ambiguous and everyone sins anyway so where do you draw the line? [/quote]
I've actually had a OSAS person tell me that if a person is truly saved they will never sin. Of course, that person then clarified that sometimes they'll backslide, but that they can return to God at any time (I wasn't clear if he equated the backsliding with sinning or not). I agree we can always return to God, but that doesn't mean we aren't separated from Him by our sins before we return to Him.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1944978' date='Aug 10 2009, 05:27 AM']I simply meant that as he was raised Roman Catholic I don't think many Southern Baptists would consider him to have been saved (that is he couldn't fall from grace as he never was in a state of grace). I didn't mean to imply that he was a practicing Roman Catholic. Sorry if I wasn't clear in how I phrased that.[/quote]
Good point.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1944398' date='Aug 9 2009, 05:02 PM']Ex Presbyterian here. When this topic came up in the circles I ran in, the common cop-out answer was, "Well, they were probably never saved to begin with." Because, of course, how could a person transformed by the Holy Spirit ever do anything as monstrous as this? Clearly they must not have been saved in the first place.[/quote]

That comeback is sort of self-defeating. If your salvation has been secured eternally by "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior", yet when someone does sin, they weren't saved in the first place, how can it provide the security that it claims to give?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1945514' date='Aug 10 2009, 02:37 PM']That comeback is sort of self-defeating. If your salvation has been secured eternally by "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior", yet when someone does sin, they weren't saved in the first place, how can it provide the security that it claims to give? [/quote]
I agree. The idea, I suppose, is that once you're saved you're always saved, but you can really never know if you are truly saved.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1944857' date='Aug 9 2009, 11:36 PM']Really I don't see how either is just. I know holocaust survivors and really I don't see how even God has a right to forgive Hitler or any of those sadistic monsters for the horrors they inflicted on those poor people. It implies the sins he committed were against God.[/quote]

Any sin against a person is, by definition, a sin against the image of God. When we cannot insult a person directly to their face, the next best thing is to deface an image of that person.

Hitler certainly showed no signs of repentance at the end of his life, so we have no reason to believe he is in heaven. Regardless, if he is, it is only by the same grace that anyone is in heaven, and somehow God's justice was satisfied. That is primarily through Christ, who was not only an image of God, but God in the flesh.

I could have insulted a person by defacing thousands and even millions of photos, posters, or any kind of artwork I could find bearing their image, but if I confess to the person I've insulted countless times and he personally forgives me in the flesh, justice would be satisfied. The metaphor falls somewhat short because humans are living images of God as opposed to the non-living material image of a photo or artwork, so insulting God by destroying human life is an immensely greater offense. On the other hand, praising God by defending and nurturing human life bestows a far greater blessing.

[BG45]

Yes, I do feel the comment I posted was stupid, it was intended to be a foolish...but true...example of things I've heard. Though as far as American Baptists go in relation to Catholics being saved, I think it's an individual and individual congregation decision. (Just a general reply that sums up most of the quotes of my quote from camp.)

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1945519' date='Aug 10 2009, 02:51 PM']I agree. The idea, I suppose, is that once you're saved you're always saved, but you can really never know if you are truly saved. [/quote]

I don't know about this one. I hang with a lot of Southern Baptists and Pentecostals, and the party line tends to be that because they've accepted Christ as personal Lord and Savior, they know for certain, without any doubt, that they'll go to heaven when they die. Jesus is the heat shield that protects us from the Father's fiery wrath.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1944975' date='Aug 9 2009, 11:20 PM']Nobody skates. If Hitler repented and God forgave him, he'd still have to do time in Purgatory. I would expect that Hitler and a few bad Popes, if they are not in hell, will be in Purgatory until the end of time. [/quote]
If they're in Purgatory though, it means they're already saved. Just that it's a matter of 'time' until they enter heaven. It's not like one stays in purgatory 'forever'.
(and I put emphases on time and forever because I'm not going to even bother thinking about how time applies to an afterlife. )

[Katholikos]

OSAS is possibly the most pernicious doctrine ever devised by man. When did it originate?

QUOTE: Martin Luther: "Let Your Sins Be Strong" (excerpt)

13. . . . It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. [color="#FF0000"]No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day[/color].

Written on the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521 END QUOTE

This concept was refined by John Calvin in his doctrine of the "Perseverance of the Saints."

This killer's pastor taught OSAS, and he believed it. He expected to die and wake up in heaven after killing three people he didn't even know. His intention was to kill even more. And he thought "That's okay, I've been saved."

There is no limit to the bizarre doctrines a man with a Bible can invent when he rejects the guidance of the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world.

So grateful to be Catholic! Katholikos
former Southern Baptist, agnostic, atheist

[Hassan]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1946001' date='Aug 11 2009, 01:22 AM']OSAS is possibly the most pernicious doctrine ever devised by man. When did it originate?

QUOTE: Martin Luther: "Let Your Sins Be Strong" (excerpt)

13. . . . It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. [color="#FF0000"]No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day[/color].

Written on the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521 END QUOTE

This concept was refined by John Calvin in his doctrine of the "Perseverance of the Saints."

This killer's pastor taught OSAS, and he believed it. He expected to die and wake up in heaven after killing three people he didn't even know. His intention was to kill even more. And he thought "That's okay, I've been saved."

There is no limit to the bizarre doctrines a man with a Bible can invent when he rejects the guidance of the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world.

So grateful to be Catholic! Katholikos
former Southern Baptist, agnostic, atheist[/quote]

I'm sorry. Drawing a causal line between a theological psincipal and this man's horrid crimes is just absurd. It ignores the numerous obvious and much more relevent factors at work. I assure you that plenty of Catholics have through history managed to justify wicked crimes with their faith.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1945685' date='Aug 11 2009, 12:02 AM']I don't know about this one. I hang with a lot of Southern Baptists and Pentecostals, and the party line tends to be that because they've accepted Christ as personal Lord and Savior, they know for certain, without any doubt, that they'll go to heaven when they die. Jesus is the heat shield that protects us from the Father's fiery wrath. [/quote]
While this is what most Southern Baptists (at least the ones I know) believe, at the same time there is doubt about being saved. If you backslide, people question it. At the end of the Sunday service, during the "altar call", the preacher often makes you doubt whether you're [i]really [/i]saved. So in one instant you're being told that you can have absolute assurance, and in the next being made to doubt whether you have that assurance, and if you don't, that you aren't actually saved. This can all happen in the span of 1 altar call.

[LouisvilleFan]

None of the Baptist churches I attended had altar calls. I think it's seen by many in our generation as a tradition that lost its meaning. They know you can go through the motions of an altar call as much as any other religious action.

[Archaeology cat]

Really? I'm pretty sure all the ones I've attended had altar calls. Every week.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1946089' date='Aug 11 2009, 09:54 AM']Really? I'm pretty sure all the ones I've attended had altar calls. Every week.[/quote]


I attended a Baptist church for two years and there was an altar call every week.