Proof God Doesn't Exist

[MagiDragon]

My atheistic friend says that by definition God is all-good and omnipotent. I can't argue there.

Edit: He says the Christian definition of God is this. He also notes that this proof does not eliminate a supernatural entity of vast power and goodness.

He also says that if God is all-good and omnipotent and gives us free will, why did He not create us in a manner so that though we have free will, we would always choose Good?

I think I can fight this one by saying that God wanted free will to be a choice of Him or Evil. (lack of Him) For a person to truly be free in making a choice, they have to have knowledge of both Good and Evil. Therefore Evil must exist.

I was hoping that someone else may have some other arguments to offer here.

Thanks,
MagiDragon

Edited April 2, 2004 by MagiDragon

[Sojourner]

If you can't say no, then your yes means nothing.

[cmotherofpirl]

You friend isn't logical. God is. God can't make free will in a manner that we always choose the good because it would then not be free. Freedom implies a choice. Its like asking God to make a square circle.

[MagiDragon]

i'm afraid it *is* still logical. God knows all. He knows what choices will be made, and when they will be made.

God can bring good from evil. He can sculpt events before they happen so that though a person commits a crime, the crime itself will fulfill requirements to cause a good thing.

If this is the case, God could still *allow* free will, but know that the right choice would always be made.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Apr 1 2004, 06:20 PM'] My atheistic friend says that by definition God is all-good and omnipotent.  I can't argue there. [/quote]
... then you missed out

The god we believe in is: "the one infinite and perfect creator who exercises perfect providence over all things". Compare that to the god of the philosophers (immutable, not part of the causal nexus...) or the Spinozics or the pantheists or the panentheists... these are all monotheists btw. He failed to point out which "god". (we assums he meant the God we believe in but it's not "of course").

His argument misses one major point: If God is omnipotent then he is above logic. Believing in the christian/jewish god is faith, not necessarily logical anyway.

Trying to disprove faith (inherently illogical) using a set of logical statements to renounce a being that's above logic is... illogical?

Edited April 2, 2004 by RandomProddy

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]He also says that if God is all-good and omnipotent and gives us free will, why did He not create us in a manner so that though we have free will, we would always choose Good?[/quote]

It wouldn't be free will if we had to choose good? God wants us to give ourselves to Him totally and freely as a gift.

[b][u]Mark 14:36[/u][/b]

"he said, 'Abba, Father, all things are possible to you. Take this cup away from me,[b] but not what I will but what you will."[/b]

Jesus is "The way the truth and the life." We are to imitate Him in everything. Even though He was innocent of sin, He died on the Cross for our sins. Do you see the gift of total self? He gave His very Life, so that we may have eternal Life with Him.

If He made us choose good all the time then we would robots, not human beings with a free will. Plus He always gives us the graces that we need (we should always ask for these graces!) Grace doesn't make it easy, but it does make a person able to do the right things, namely to keep His commandments. God wants sacrifice.

Pray for your friend, tell him there is a God and that He loves Him so much that He gave His only Son to die for our (him) sins. Talk to Him about Jesus the Christ and that He is the Way the Truth and the Life. Tell Him about His Church that He founded 2000 years ago, The Catholic Church. Then again I say pray for your friend, put him into the hand of Our Lady. I've seen miracles of conversion in my life, anything is possible with God!

God Bless
Jason

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 1 2004, 06:28 PM'] If you can't say no, then your yes means nothing. [/quote]

yes, this is true, but just because a person *can* say no doesn't mean that they ever *will* say no.

If you look at probability, there is virtually no possibility of all choices being 'yesses,' but this does not mean that God couldn't have sculpted one.

By the same token, I look at creation as a predetermined thing: God set things in motion knowing exactly all that would happen and when they would happen. The probability of things happening that way is nearly nonexistant, but the probability with God is 1.

Edited April 2, 2004 by MagiDragon

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 1 2004, 06:28 PM'] If you can't say no, then your yes means nothing. [/quote]
Hmm. If I say "yes" to this my yes might not mean anything, but if I say "no" then I disagree. Troubling

[MagiDragon]

[quote]His argument misses one major point: If God is omnipotent then he is above logic. Believing in the christian/jewish god is faith, not necessarily logical anyway.[/quote]

Is God not Truth? If God is Truth, and gave us reason as a means of learning about Him, shouldn't we be able to at least prove that this does not eliminate belief in God?

[quote]If He made us choose good all the time then we would robots, not human beings with a free will. Plus He always gives us the graces that we need (we should always ask for these graces!) Grace doesn't make it easy, but it does make a person able to do the right things, namely to keep His commandments. God wants sacrifice.[/quote]

yes, but that is only true if He *made us choose good.* Why can God not simply give us a choice even though He knows that we won't make it? After all, God does know what we will do before we even are given the choice.

On this same line of thinking, has anyone ever known of a story where a person was given the opportunity to be a victim soul, but they passed it up? I suspect that God only gives people who will say 'yes' this opportunity.

Actually, i've presented both of these arguments to him already, and i'm merely repeating back his objections.

Edited April 2, 2004 by MagiDragon

[HomeTeamFamily]

ok first off you friend, in my opinion, has a pretty weak argument.

here is my proof for this issue:
God loves us
God wants us to love Him
God will not impose His love on us
therefore, God wants us to love Him freely, on our own accord
in order for us to be able to love freely, we have to have the option of not loving freely
thus, God wants us to love Him freely, thats why we have the option of saying no

hope this helps

[ironmonk]

The argument is not that simple. It takes careful study. Pascal's wager is enough to believe that there is God.

Read this article, and then try to get your friend to read it.
[url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0002.html"]http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apol...ics/ap0002.html[/url]

Then study and research.

To much proof that God exists is out there and real for there to be no God.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited April 2, 2004 by ironmonk

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]yes, but that is only true if He *made us choose good.* Why can God not simply give us a choice even though He knows that we won't make it? After all, God does know what we will do before we even are given the choice.[/quote]

He desires love and sacrifice. God does know all, [b]I'm not to judge on what He permits to happen.[/b] We make choices everyday, God knows our hearts, He knows us better than we know ourselves! We are His children. Does not a father correct a child? How much more will Our Heavenly Father who knows what is best for us use correction if needed. Love isn't a box of candy, it doesn't always feel good, love is sacrifice.

God Bless
Jason

[MagiDragon]

[quote]QUOTE 
yes, but that is only true if He *made us choose good.* Why can God not simply give us a choice even though He knows that we won't make it? After all, God does know what we will do before we even are given the choice.



He desires love and sacrifice. God does know all, I'm not to judge on what He permits to happen. We make choices everyday, God knows our hearts, He knows us better than we know ourselves! We are His children. Does not a father correct a child? How much more will Our Heavenly Father who knows what is best for us use correction if needed. Love isn't a box of candy, it doesn't always feel good, love is sacrifice.

God Bless
Jason[/quote]

ahh, yes, this is more what i was hoping for.

[MagiDragon]

so what happens when the corrections happen so perfectly that they leave no one who chooses evil? evil would not exist. so does this mean that God is not perfect?

[MagiDragon]

[quote]The argument is not that simple. It takes careful study. Pascal's wager is enough to believe that there is God.

Read this article, and then try to get your friend to read it.
[url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apol...ics/ap0002.html"]http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apol...ics/ap0002.html[/url]

Then study and research.[/quote]

Yes, I see your point. It *should* be enough to force belief in *a* god. Unfortunately, he has completely eliminated any chance of God existing within his own mind. He considers the odds to be 0 vs. 100. Thus, Pascal's wager doesn't hold.

I need something to *disprove God's nonexistence*, not something to prove God's existence. I believe that if he can no longer consider it to be illogical to believe in God, he will be forced to look deeper into Christianity, and eventually Catholicism.

My friend is a rationalist, but an honest one. He will try to test things as much as possible to see if they break, but if they do not break he will accept them.

Edit: to add a little more background: He believes in chaos theory. (The theory that choice is an illusion: all things are predetermined by prior circumstances. We may consider ourselves to have a choice, but we will always choose to do the same thing under exactly the same circumstances.) Yet, he's a moral guy. He says that even though all choice is an illusion, that's no reason to stop applying effort.

Edited April 2, 2004 by MagiDragon