Healthcare Freedom Day: 8/21/2009

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1943243' date='Aug 8 2009, 12:15 AM']... How dare anyone want to make a better life for themselves and follow their dreams... heck, let's just call the jolly Queen of England and tell her how sorry we are for revolting all those years ago and beg her to rule us like they did back then. Who needs freedom and dreams....[/quote]
Hey, I'm sure she'll cut you some slack. I hear you and the UK get along really well. You'll probably end up having the same/similar government system as the Aussies and us Canucks do. That means you get a cut into the Commonwealth!

[Chestertonian]

Barney Frank to "Sing Payer Action": I think that if we get a good public option it could lead to single-payer and that is the best way to reach single-payer. Saying you’ll do nothing till you get single-payer is a sure way never to get it. … I think the best way we’re going to get single-payer, the only way, is to have a public option and demonstrate the strength of its power.”

Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-IL) to Health Care for America Now rally: “And next to me was a guy from the insurance company who argued against the public health insurance option, saying it wouldn’t let private insurance compete. That a public option will put the private insurance industry out of business and lead to single-payer. My single-payer friends, he was right. The man was right.”



I just sent an email to flag@whitehouse.gov stating the following:

Please note that Jan Schakowsky D-IL, and Barney Frank D-MA are on record stating that the new health care system will definitely evolve into a single-payer system, which is in direct conflict with President Obama’s statements.

Take whatever action you deem necessary to stop these lies and misinformation

Thank you

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1942901' date='Aug 7 2009, 09:42 PM']As it is under any socialized health care. Not necessarily for absolutely everything but overall there is an increase in wait time.[/quote]
As with everything, that depends on the region. My wait time in England for physiotherapy was much shorter than my wait in the US.

[ironmonk]

Here is a piece that 20/20 did on it:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdx_2cuPgQQ&feature=player_embedded"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdx_2cuPgQQ...player_embedded[/url]

God Bless,
ironmonk

[BG45]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1942902' date='Aug 7 2009, 04:45 PM'][url="http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf"]http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/ge...h3200ih.txt.pdf[/url]

There's the bill. Please, enlighten me to where I'll find such things. I'm sure you've spent hours studying it since you have such lofty opinions about it.[/quote]

I think if Congressmen and women have their own opinions without even reading a page, everyone else seems to feel the same entitlement...unfortunately.

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1943221' date='Aug 7 2009, 11:53 PM']Many people uninsured in this nation are uninsured by choice. Anyone without any major medical issues can get individual health insurance for around $100 per month... if they want a higher deductible, they can get it for closer to $70 per month.[/quote]



Sorry that had to be my response, because even COBRA, the insurance for those who can't afford anything else, last I checked, cost over $400 a month with no pre-existing conditions. And last I checked was a couple of weeks ago was when they were at my employer, trying to convince us to sign up for over half what we make a month...

Edited August 8, 2009 by BG45

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1943243' date='Aug 7 2009, 10:15 PM']Obama is working toward a one payer system, which is a fact... here he is talking about it...
[url="http://www.obamabeenlying.com/?p=89"]http://www.obamabeenlying.com/?p=89[/url]


Now, it takes a little business understanding to know how the bill will destroy healthcare. It is going to force all businesses to give their employees healthcare or their employees can go on the government plan... so, businesses will have the option to either continue spending $250 to $1000 a month per employee on a small group health plan, or just let the government do it... what do you think will happen? There is a lot of evidence, this is not theory, it's a fact that socialized medicine is poor medicine. Innovation costs money, business minded people back innovation so they can make... OH MY GOSH... A PROFIT... HOW EVIL. How dare anyone want to make a better life for themselves and follow their dreams... heck, let's just call the jolly Queen of England and tell her how sorry we are for revolting all those years ago and beg her to rule us like they did back then. Who needs freedom and dreams.

You speak from watching mainstream state media... I speak from working in the healthcare industry... from seeing what has happened to other countries that have done what Obama wants.

Obama lies, and there are numerous videos on that site that prove it beyond all doubt... Do you really think he's going to tell the truth now that he's president? Answer: [b]NO[/b].


God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]
I don't think evidence from you anti-obama site is going to nail any coffins shut.

I don't speak from the "mainstream state media." I don't watch the "mainstream state media." I speak from reading the bill and listening to the people responsible for the reform. Because this strikes at home for me. I have no money, anymore, because of my medical care. No, i didn't lose a limb or come close to dying, but I have had to spend thousands of dollars to seek treatment for a chronic condition which has now left me paying hefty bills, and I think it's ridiculous that anyone should have to choose between getting gas or food, or feeling better.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='BG45' post='1943468' date='Aug 8 2009, 11:52 AM']I think if Congressmen and women have their own opinions without even reading a page, everyone else seems to feel the same entitlement...unfortunately.





Sorry that had to be my response, because even COBRA, the insurance for those who can't afford anything else, last I checked, cost over $400 a month with no pre-existing conditions. And last I checked was a couple of weeks ago was when they were at my employer, trying to convince us to sign up for over half what we make a month...[/quote]

Employers get small group insurance for their employees, it costs way more than individual insurance because with small group, there is no underwriting, so there is a huge risk on the insurance company's part.

Individual insurance is much much cheaper, as long as there are not any preexisting conditions. If you have preexisting conditions, the price goes up, but people can have the choice to get a rider, saying that the preexisting condition is not covered. Also, as people get older they are allowed a certain number of issues before it affects the price.

An average health 50 year old man can get individual insurance for less than $250 per month. A average health 25 year old man can get individual insurance for less than $100 per month. Things that can make it even cheaper is to get an HSA and increase the deductible.

Insurance is for catastrophic events... most people can afford going to the doctor once or twice a year out of pocket. A lot of people treat insurance like prepaid medical because they really don't understand what it is for.

The congress is unjustly demonizing health insurance companies, when if it wasn't for health insurance companies, many people in America would be dead or have seriously horrible quality of life. It's almost as if people think health insurance companies have money growing on trees. They have to make a profit so they can pay the doctors, hospitals, labs, their employees, their office equipment, their buildings, etc... A profit is a must to stay in business. You hear horror stories about people getting denied coverage, but you never hear of the millions that do get coverage that saves their lives. Sometimes there are paperwork mistakes, sometimes, people lie to the underwriters during their interview... rule 1 when getting insurance, NEVER lie lol.

We had someone that thought spending $100 per month was too much because they were young and wanted to spend it on other things, two months later she called back because she was diagnosed with cancer... she'll be in debt for a very long time... which is sad, but had she kept her coverage then we would have paid for everything over her deductible. Moral of the story, if you are young, get an HSA and a $5000-7000 deductible, it should cost around $50-$70 per month. Put an extra $25 per month in your HSA (tax free - health savings account) and when you go to the doctor, it comes out of your interest free HSA. If you end up getting cancer or in a bad accident, everything else will be covered over the deductible.

If you can't qualify for a normal individual health insurance plan due to serious illnesses, then medicaid/medicare are available... and no one can be turned away from an emergency room. For common sicknesses, a doc visit will cost around $50 if you let them know ahead of time that you don't have insurance and negotiate price... when I didn't have insurance, I would get in and out of the doctor with a $40 bill and they'd give me a bunch of sample medication so I didn't have to pay for it at the pharmacy. Moral of the story, don't believe the lies told by Obama and his cronies in Washington... and don't sit around doing nothing feeling sorry for yourself.

We are responsible for ourselves, the government is not our mother.
[b]2 Thess. 3:10[/b] In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.


Those who truly need help, should get it, and that help is always best managed through the Catholic Church as we all know that government programs always waste money with bureaucratic nonsense. Look how the created and stole money from social security, among the many many other programs they start and waste money on.

Governments never give anything for free, they will enslave the people by their very nature... sometimes it's chains, sometimes it's taxes, but freedom cannot exist in a nanny State.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

Oh, one more thing, once you have health insurance, as long as you pay your premium, you cannot be cut from the company. The only thing that can affect your rate is your age and location.

You could have a $100,000 claim and the company cannot drop you. Point being, get it and keep it, to save money if you're healthy, get a high deductible plan with an HSA.

Unlike auto insurance and home owners insurance who seem like they can drop you or jack your rates to unreal levels.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[BG45]

Very nice Iron Monk, thanks!

[kamiller42]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1943231' date='Aug 8 2009, 12:06 AM']It's not government run health care. It's government run health insurance. There is a major difference.[/quote]
Well, I think ironmonk is on fire and has said 99% of what I wanted to say. Hat tip to ya ironmonk!

Fidei, normally I would say they are separate entities, but when the government is involved, it is not. Government run insurance is a foot in the door to something much larger and terrible and unconstitutional. This is incrementalism. Government run health insurance will be government run health care. Government writes the rules and can choose the rules it wants to follow at an unfair cost to private market corporations who have played by the rules. Government also grossly mis-estimates program costs. They run programs with a bureaucratic layer at a heavy cost to tax payers. We see examples of all of these fumblings and inefficiencies in cash for clunkers and the auto bailout.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1943743' date='Aug 8 2009, 03:53 PM']Well, I think ironmonk is on fire and has said 99% of what I wanted to say. Hat tip to ya ironmonk!

Fidei, normally I would say they are separate entities, but when the government is involved, it is not. Government run insurance is a foot in the door to something much larger and terrible and unconstitutional. This is incrementalism. Government run health insurance will be government run health care. Government writes the rules and can choose the rules it wants to follow at an unfair cost to private market corporations who have played by the rules. Government also grossly mis-estimates program costs. They run programs with a bureaucratic layer at a heavy cost to tax payers. We see examples of all of these fumblings and inefficiencies in cash for clunkers and the auto bailout.[/quote]
While I can agree with the logic, it's good practice to create an argument around what actually exists now rather than what you fear will exist.

I'm referring to the bill itself and the CURRENT reform, not what you fear will happen or suspect will happen. If you want to worry about what might happen, have fun with that. I'd rather hear about what is happening and discuss that.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1943745' date='Aug 8 2009, 05:55 PM']While I can agree with the logic, it's good practice to create an argument around what actually exists now rather than what you fear will exist.

I'm referring to the bill itself and the CURRENT reform, not what you fear will happen or suspect will happen. If you want to worry about what might happen, have fun with that. I'd rather hear about what is happening and discuss that.[/quote]
Yea, you can never go wrong with the argument "It works in theory." And that's all the Obamacare bill is, a theoretical healthcare utopia. I am telling you it is terrible based on historical precedent. (Fannie and Freddie are two more colossal examples of government ineptitude. "But they just wanted to help people get homes." Sounds like "But they just wanted people to get healthcare.")

There are much better reform measures it can take that is less intrusive. Assist the insurance industry and citizens in obtaining catastrophic healthcare insurance. If the government would like to act as an insurance shopping agent to bring insurance companies and consumers together, that's fine. Those who like a nanny state would be more comfortable with this arrangement. Catastrophic insurance handles the fears of people, getting caught with something terrible and not being able to pay for care.

Promote care for lesser conditions with an out of pocket market. Out of pocket reduces overhead and encourages lower prices. The system needs to eliminate "hidden" costs from consumers who pay a small deductible and never have to write a check for the larger costs. Make them see the funds and write a check to see it expended.

What we have now is Pandora's box. That is not an opinion based on irrational fear. It is an educated opinion based on the U.S. government's performance record.

[kamiller42]

Fear mongering.

[quote]Obama: Health overhaul key to economic recovery

WASHINGTON – Using better-than-expected jobs numbers to press his top domestic priority, President Barack Obama is arguing that overhauling the health care system is essential to the country's economic well-being.

[url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090808/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_health_care"]Source[/url][/quote]

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1943757' date='Aug 8 2009, 04:20 PM']Yea, you can never go wrong with the argument "It works in theory." And that's all the Obamacare bill is, a theoretical healthcare utopia. I am telling you it is terrible based on historical precedent. (Fannie and Freddie are two more colossal examples of government ineptitude. "But they just wanted to help people get homes." Sounds like "But they just wanted people to get healthcare.")

There are much better reform measures it can take that is less intrusive. Assist the insurance industry and citizens in obtaining catastrophic healthcare insurance. If the government would like to act as an insurance shopping agent to bring insurance companies and consumers together, that's fine. Those who like a nanny state would be more comfortable with this arrangement. Catastrophic insurance handles the fears of people, getting caught with something terrible and not being able to pay for care.

Promote care for lesser conditions with an out of pocket market. Out of pocket reduces overhead and encourages lower prices. The system needs to eliminate "hidden" costs from consumers who pay a small deductible and never have to write a check for the larger costs. Make them see the funds and write a check to see it expended.

What we have now is Pandora's box. That is not an opinion based on irrational fear. It is an educated opinion based on the U.S. government's performance record.[/quote]
Well, if we're going to just assume that things will "happen," I don't see anywhere in the bill that says they won't force me to buy green chuck taylor shoes. I oppose the bill because I wear black ones, not green ones... and of course, since the bill doesn't say they can't, they're going to make me wear green ones!

[Lounge Daddy]

That's going to be an interesting weekend. [url="http://factreal.wordpress.com/2009/08/04/next-tea-party-nationwide-recess-rally-august-22-2009/"]Tea Parties are being planned for the 22nd[/url], while the possibility of walk-outs are medical facilities are alleged for the 21st. I wonder how it will out pan out.