Saved By Faith Alone

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1942677' date='Aug 7 2009, 10:07 AM']Punch him in the stomach and say: "Save [i]this[/i], pal."

That's what I did to the Lutheran pastor next door. You might have heard of him: Pope Benedict.[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

and you can also see how the doctrine of the atonement, plays into it all.
if it's a legal act, as catholics usually even say, and prots do usually, then the legal technicalities make more sense. it's a techincal application to another person through a person who did nothing.
that's actually why i'm not as big into the legal atonement, maybe, but i tend not to believe it as much. some question whether one can be chrisitan and not believe that, but.
i do know the orthodox church doesn't teach legal atonement, their notions of atonement vary more. and it's not just the orthodox. so i'm not alone.

yeah all interrelated: purgatory, OSAS, atonement, faith v. works, sacraments etc

[icelandic_iceskater]

The bible story of the blind man who Jesus healed by rubbing mud in his eyes is great for defending against sola scriptura. It was the faith of the blind man that brought sight, but not until the blind man got up and went to the river to wash the mud off.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1944350' date='Aug 9 2009, 05:06 PM'][/quote]
Conversion through stomach-punching is still widely respected and effective. Saints Dominic, Theresa the Little Flower and Martin dePorres were all converted through being punched in the stomach.

[thessalonian]

The Catholic Church is fine with "faith alone" as long as it is defined as an active and living faith that produces good works. Problem is most dont define it that way. If one studies scripture one finds that every time that judgement is spoken of we are judged by what we have done. The two clearest examples are Matt 25 the sheep and goats and Romans 2:4-8. They are quite clear that we have to have works to get in to heaven.

One problem that protestants have is that the phrase "faith alone" is NEVER used in scripture. Oh wait it is once. But it's james 2:24 and it won't help because it says we are NOT justified by faith alone. We also must be careful with regard to works. We don't work our way to heaven apart from faith. A man could build a hotel to the sky and fill it with poor and feed them theoretically and without faith, he would end up in hell. Grace is the key. Grace produces faith and grace produces works, both are quite neccessary.

Gal.5

1. [6] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

For the scriptures say:

Matt.7

1. [21] "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven.

We must respond to grace. We do this in faith producing good works.

With regard to works of the Law, Is 1 will give you a good understanding of the difference between works of the law and works of charity. James 1:27 says "pure religion is to care for the widow and the orphan". In Is 1 God had commanded the sacrifies of bulls and goats and the celebrations but he loaths them because the Jews have not done what he really wanted them to do. Care for the poor.

Hope that helps.

[dairygirl4u2c]

martin luther said 'saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone'.

i'm not sure what thes says is completely accurate. it's like i said above, folks say catholic merely at least beelive that ya just need works, but nothing else should be read into it.
there is more. justification is a process.
to my understanding anyway, the increasing sanctification is the process of justification.

it seems like he's more perhaps not into the 'all we say is there must be works' in and of itself, but because he's thinking by maintaining the justification, that is the process?
i don't think that's what is taught, i could be wrong.
if im wrong, then the catholic position is just like the protestant, except the related doctrine of OSAS isn't taught-- but hte faith v. works thing is the same.
i'm pretty sure it's more than just maintaining the justification, though.
ya'll should read the definitions of trent to see who's right or not.

[dairygirl4u2c]

definitely -- catholics cannot beleive 'works are merely required but that nothing else should be read into it.'
or, cant believe 'saved by faith alone but faith is never alone'

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

Edited August 10, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[thessalonian]

dairy, not sure what your reading in to my post. Explain if you think I am wrong. Your post is missing some facts as well. Sanctification which is a part of justification is a process, not be cause we are partially justified/sanctified when we are baptized and need to have more sanctification later. This is how I read your post. Sanctification is an event at baptism by which we are fully sanctified and is a process because we will sin after this event and these sins need justification and sanctification as well.

I will also say that our works maintain our justification in that they are like excercise for the soul as the Eucharist is food for the soul. The soul that responds to grace and does the work of God becomes stronger against sin and so sins less and less until perfection is reached.

Again be specific about where you think I have errors.

[dairygirl4u2c]

prots, the formidable ones, believe "saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone"

and you said this:
"The Catholic Church is fine with "faith alone" as long as it is defined as an active and living faith that produces good works. Problem is most dont define it that way. If one studies scripture one finds that every time that judgement is spoken of we are judged by what we have done. The two clearest examples are Matt 25 the sheep and goats and Romans 2:4-8. They are quite clear that we have to have works to get in to heaven."

they appear to be the same thing, at least at first glance.
i guess i shouldn't haave assumed it so quickly, since you were willing to say 'we are judged by what we have done'.
i do know protestants think they're judged by what they've done, too, per what rewards they get in heaven etc.

also you did say "NOT justified by faith alone"which might imply that you believe somehting more catholic. it could be hard to know, given prots obviusly don't disagree with what the bible says. i should have gathered from your tone more in the post that you thought more in line with Trent etc, cause you stressed works.
it's rare a catholic would say it's not necessarily wrong to think "faith alone" is an kay belief (even if they qualified that it has to be understood properly and in a way that reconciles with Trent

what you said and that martin luther quote above, might not be the same- i've heard some catholics say justification is increased etc as trent does, yet still say 'faith alone'- you must be talking in this sense.
i think there were just miscommunications. or, more that i jumped to conclusions.

----

----

i've never considered santification being fully done at baptism or any given time etc. my analogy is a cup is filling with water. the water is santification and by its nature is also just. the prots say teh cup is completely just and the sanctification or filling up is merely godo works of an already justified cup, person.
you seem like you're saying the cup is already full, from baptism. that's an interesting analogy, i've never seen sanctification as complete in that sense. (you wouldn't prob think of a cup since that implies a void, something needing filled-- maybe you see it as like a pure dirtlesss piece of ice or something? im sure there's a better analgoy despite my lack of thinking of one)(maybe a small person who would be justified, but who grows into an adult and needs sanctification and justifiation as they grow? etc)
i know catholics can be in a state of grace, but i know that doesn't mean they're all completely santified or justified etc- maybe for some it does per your system.

anyways, i think your analogy is very possible the best way to interpret Trent. in fact, if the catholic church teaches full santification at baptism etc, then it is the right way, at least in regards to the catholic church.
it'd make sense if you looked at it as perhaps a cup that is full, but that gets blemishes on it. then you'd have to wash them out etc, ie continuing santification and the process of justification.
i guess this also better describes how you would think 'faith alone' could be the rule, and yet think justifrication could still be a process. -- the process of maintaining the full cup, cleaning the blemishes etc. prots wouldn't beleive that, even if they don't believe in OSAS as i was concluding what you essetnailly were thinking in my last post (i know i'm not explaining this inside and out, but).
so maybe i shouldn't have assumed the conclusions that i did abvout your beliefs.

do you have like an analogy that you use to understand this, in you mind etc or?
i'm a visual person, so it might just be some people who think in those terms.

Edited August 10, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

this guys says it's not clear, im not sure.
"What, though, is the relationship between the baptism and sanctification and justification? The connection here is not absolutely clear, but I suggest that sanctification and justification are two implications of the event of baptism."


so yeah-- if the CC teaches sanctification is complete at baptism, at least at that time, then it would end up being me who had the error per catholic teaching.

Edited August 10, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1942662' date='Aug 7 2009, 11:20 AM']i'm pretty sure that the catholic church teaches that mankind is redeemed by jesus on the cross. this applies to all, not just to believers. prots would criticize, saying that 'oh gee a lot of good that does, if you're redeemed but not saved. what gives?"
i actually like the distinction they draw, redeemed but not saved per se.[/quote]

Pretty sure????? My gosh, dairy, I hate to be a jerk, but of all the things to know about Catholicism, this is the central act of our worship. You do know that the Mass brings the Holy Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross present to us, don't you? And that by consuming Him we are made holy/sanctified/redeemed/et cetera? Why do you think every Catholic Church required to have a crucifix in the sanctuary? Come on...

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1942662' date='Aug 7 2009, 11:20 AM']also the catholic churches that justification is a process. i think they say it was a one time event like with prots but it is also a process. i think the link to an old thread talked about it being a process. i know the catholic enclcopedia said it was too, maybe the council of trent. i think louisivlle said once that he thought it was not a process, but i'm pretty sure that's the definition-- it goes well with the idea that works are required.[/quote]

I said that because justification is -- by definition -- a change that occurs at one point in time. We are justified by faith. All Christians believe that. It's straight out of Scripture. Sanctification is a process that occurs between justification and glorification -- when we are in Heaven for eternity.

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1942662' date='Aug 7 2009, 11:20 AM']i'd also clarify from what was said above, a lot of catholics try to down play the requirement of works[/quote]

We don't play down anything. We believe one must actually be holy to be holy. Simple as that.




The silly faith vs. works debate is more overdone than religion vs. science. They are classic false dichotomies. There is no competition between them... only misunderstandings among people who are too lazy or proud to learn facts.

How's that for a little Monday morning attitude?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1945321' date='Aug 10 2009, 11:45 AM']this guys says it's not clear, im not sure.
"What, though, is the relationship between the baptism and sanctification and justification? The connection here is not absolutely clear, but I suggest that sanctification and justification are two implications of the event of baptism."


so yeah-- if the CC teaches sanctification is complete at baptism, at least at that time, then it would end up being me who had the error per catholic teaching.[/quote]

This is a great simplification, but...

Baptism = Justification

Other Sacraments, especially Reconciliation and Eucharist = Sanctification


I say this is a simplification because every person's relationship with God is different. We can't say every person is definitely justified at Baptism because some people have hard hearts or otherwise refuse the grace that is offered in the sacrament. However, Baptism is the sacrament that begins our life in the Church and washes us from all sin, so it is properly associated with justification. The other sacraments assist us in our journey from Baptism to Heaven, which is the process of sanctification.

Edited August 10, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]an important analytical idea, is that people often create an imagery in their mind,like a cup filling up with water or grace. others have different analogies. if you can pin poit what yours are and the other persons are, you might be able to get into a more meaningful analysis as to why one analogy fits better or not.
-eg, "'graced works' go on the scales that are weighed by God." or "works go on the scales" or "no scales, only a cup filling up- sanctifiation" or etc[/quote]

another anaolgy would be a plant that grows, or a child that grows.

is that increase in development, automatically justified by virtue of Jesus alone, or is it justified by virtue of the person who caused it to grow too?

maybe this anaology is good for pointing out the catholic argument... a vine, to use the methophor of i am the vine and you are the branches, is a vine, read just, because it's a vine, ie just. it's not a vine because of a legal terminology that says a stick is a vine when it's pretending to be one or something. even if there's that verse that says our sins are like dung, and they shall be covered like snow etc.

[Deb]

Well, first I would point out to your brother that there is nowhere in the bible where it says that man is saved by faith alone. The word Alone was added by Luther in his translation and never appears in ANY copy of the gospels prior to his adding it.

We are saved by Chris's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity. God's grace can save us but we must cooperate with that.

Corinthians 13:2 2 " [size="2"]If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. "

There is so much in the bible that points out that God can save us, or we MAY be saved, not that it is guaranteed. Have him prayerfully read Matthew Chapter 7. We are told not to judge, do to men all that you wish done to you, enter by the narrow gate, a good tree cannot bear bad fruit nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father in heaven shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. That seems pretty darn clear to me. He tells us that we must hear his words and act on them. That means what we do, how we live, our actions will determine our fate. To presume that one is guaranteed a place in heaven because they have faith and belief in Christ is delusional.

Okay. I would love to toss out a ton more stuff here because there is tons, but I need to run to church in time for Divine Mercy hour. I, unlike your brother, need as much help as I can get to save me from my sins. Pray, pray, pray.

Recommend your brother read the book, By What Authority by Mark P. Shea.

Mir

[/size]

[font="arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"]
[/size][/font]