Saved By Faith Alone

[Lisieux Flower]

My brother and I were having a discussion a couple days ago, and he's protestant and of course believes that you are saved through your faith in Christ. He said he doesn't understand why we Catholics believe that a person is saved through grace and that we have the ability to cut ourselves off from grace. Of course he doesn't recognize the Magisterium or Sacred Tradition, so does anyone know of any Scriptural references I show him?

Here are some he gave me:

"For in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.... And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:26-27, 29 Todd (my brother) says that when we are baptized we become a part of Christ's family, and we can't stop being children of God. Through our faith, we inherit the "promise" of heaven.


"In whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling-place of God." Ephesians 2:22 and
"All who obey his commandments abide in im, and he abides in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, but the Spirit that he has given us." He says that when we possess this faith, the Holy Spirit enters into us. We can't go to hell with the Spirit living inside us.

"For by grace you ave been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God- not the result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 Todd says your works cannot cut you off from God's grace....

So there are more, but he basically says he believes you are saved because of your faith. When I asked about those who have faith, but then commit a mortal sin like murder, he said that they didn't truly possess faith. When someone has faith, the fruit that blossoms is good works. He gave me another bible reference (I can't find it now) that enforces that...
[i]
Please[/i] help if you are able to! I need help!

Thank you and God bless!!

[Archaeology cat]

The Ephesians reference, if I'm not mistaken, is referring to works of the Law.

You should have him look at James, where it states that faith without works is dead (James 2:20).

Yes, we are adopted into God's family when we are baptised, but just as a family member can cut themselves off from their physical family, we can cut ourselves off from God through our actions (works). God will not force us to stay in the family, just as a parent will not force their child to stay if the child chooses to go, no matter how much it might break the parent's heart. We do not lose our free will just because we are baptised. There's a passage that talks about those who have left, but I can't remember where it is right now.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Lisieux Flower' post='1941159' date='Aug 5 2009, 12:21 PM']My brother and I were having a discussion a couple days ago, and he's protestant and of course believes that you are saved through your faith in Christ. He said he doesn't understand why we Catholics believe that a person is saved through grace and that we have the ability to cut ourselves off from grace. Of course he doesn't recognize the Magisterium or Sacred Tradition, so does anyone know of any Scriptural references I show him?[/quote]

One of the Eucharistic Prayers says at one point, "Lord, look not at our sins, but at our faith..."

Protestants also believe in salvation by grace alone. It's one thing all Christians agree on. The phrase I heard a lot from Protestants is "saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone," and depending on what you mean by "faith alone," it's not incompatible with Catholic doctrine.

The question of whether/how one can be cut off from grace is plenty debated among Protestants. The only difference with Catholics is that we can answer the question with authority, whereas they will debate it back and forth with the "authority of Scripture" until Jesus comes back.

[BG45]

I'm with AC on thinking the Ephesians one deals with the Law.

Here's a pretty good Scripture filled article from Marcus Grodi on the issue. [url="http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/justification/justify_9.htm"]http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/justific...n/justify_9.htm[/url]

Another decent article, [url="http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/page8.html"]http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/page8.html[/url]

And of course there's always ScriptureCatholic.com

And to quote my own resignation letter to my church, and thus a nice amount of Scripture on the topic:

[quote]Second amongst the issues I wish to address is that of Sola Fide, or Faith Alone. While we are saved through the Grace of Jesus Christ, which we do not, and never will be able to deserve or somehow pay for, we are not to live by faith alone, nor are we to be justified by it alone. The most common example of this is in the book of James, in James 2:14-24, “What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, ‘Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,’ but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action is dead.

“But someone will say, ‘you have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that – and shudder.

“You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abramaham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,’ and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”

It was this section of text that prompted Luther’s “epistle of straw” comment. Yet, if James is just a straw man, then the infallibility of the Word of God comes into question. Do we believe in the words that were handed down or do we not? Perhaps then, if we continue to look, we can find some sort of evidence to back up this claim of James.

None other than the Apostle Paul would back James’s remarks in his famous letter to the Romans. In Romans 2:6-13 we are told, “God ‘will give to each person according to what he has done’. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.”

In a number of translations, those who obey the law is translated as the “doers”, or those who do. Yet that is semantics compared to the message presented by the Apostle here; he hearkens back to the Sixty-Second Psalm’s twelfth verse and the twenty-fourth chapter of Proverb’s twelfth verse in his opening statement that we will be given in accordance with what we have done. Paul invokes the Old Testament which was well known to his Jewish readers in order to show us that we should have works to go with our faith that we should not sit contently and go “I am saved, let the Rapture and party begin; sorry about the rest of you”.

Yet it is not only the Apostle Paul who backs James’s statement, but also the words of our Lord Himself. Imagine my horror when I put together the context of Luke 6:46-49 when Christ says, “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”

We are called to put his words into practice, to have works as well as faith. This is not the only time our Lord says as much, for He also says in his warning of false prophets in Matthew 7:19-22, “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Thus from the words of James to Paul to the very mouth of our Lord, Christ Jesus, I can not bear to think that Sola Fide is justifiable. The two pillars of the Reformation are washed away, like our sins, by the blood of He who died for us.[/quote]

[Lisieux Flower]

Awesome!! Thank you!

[eagle_eye222001]

Here are a few more links. Not sure if you need them but there are there if you do.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303sbs.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303sbs.asp[/url]

This Bible Christian Society link is a Catholic apologetics site with hour lectures on several topics including sola fide or by faith alone. You can download the file as an mp3.

[url="http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/download"]http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/download[/url]

www.catholic.com has very good resources. If you can't find what you need explicitly just post again here on Open Mic and we'll be glad to help you out.

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[dairygirl4u2c]

i tend to think the debate between the two camps, are about human understandings only.
i would tend to think i have an idea for why both ideas prot v. catholic are wrong, but even if i don't, i'm still pretty sure God's ways are not stated propertly by either side.

i always liked comparing the use of abraham as an analogy in romans, and james- they seem to be at odds. one says he was justified by faith, the other says justified by works- apparently ocntradictory.

i usually then talk about "by grace are ye saved, not of works, lest any man should boast", either ephesians or galatians, i always forget

keep in mind works generally are not works of the law.

keep in mind, that jesus himself, when considering what Paul means given uncertainty, usually stresses works.

and then add that sanctification is often contrasted with justification. in CC sanctification justirfies, in prot, no.
i usually talk about the calculus of increasing in works etc- both sides require a continual increase etc.
prots require works, sanctification, the bettter systems of prots anyway, the ones that are formidable that you should concern yourself with anyway. ('we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone' -martin luther) the question is esseually what causes the justification? the grace of God with works, or jesus and faith alone. there's arguments to be made.

an important analytical idea, is that people often create an imagery in their mind,like a cup filling up with water or grace. others have different analogies. if you can pin poit what yours are and the other persons are, you might be able to get into a more meaningful analysis as to why one analogy fits better or not.
-eg, "'graced works' go on the scales that are weighed by God." or "works go on the scales" or "no scales, only a cup filling up- sanctifiation" or etc


an important word of caution is that those debates often devolve into talking about once saved always saved. whether sanctification justifies also, is an independent idea than OSAS- don't assume things like just because a person might fall away that sanctification doesn't justify, or just things generally like that. but they are related too though, if a person beleives in OSAS they might think also that sanctification also justifies given it'd be required something beyond oneself.
related, but independent. just got to watch the talk

some important links from here cause it discusses the council of trent and some basic definitions and doctrine etc:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=35&hl=abraham&st=20"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...raham&st=20[/url]

Edited August 7, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[princessgianna]

Then what do you think is right? Just curious to hear what you think!

PAX~

[Katholikos]

Would your brother be interested in knowing that Sola Fide (faith alone) first made an appearance in the historical record in the 16th century, when Martin Luther 'discovered" it while reading Romans? It's a belief that is only about 500 years old. Jesus and His Apostles never taught it.

If one wishes to believe as the first Christians believed, who learned doctrine from the lips of the Apostles and not from reading words on a page, one has to be Catholic .

Peace be with you, Katholikos

[dairygirl4u2c]

what katho said reminded me... the one place in the bible where it uses the phrase 'faith alone', is in james, where he says that a man is justified by both works and faith.

i'm pretty sure that the catholic church teaches that mankind is redeemed by jesus on the cross. this applies to all, not just to believers. prots would criticize, saying that 'oh gee a lot of good that does, if you're redeemed but not saved. what gives?"
i actually like the distinction they draw, redeemed but not saved per se.

also the catholic churches that justification is a process. i think they say it was a one time event like with prots but it is also a process. i think the link to an old thread talked about it being a process. i know the catholic enclcopedia said it was too, maybe the council of trent. i think louisivlle said once that he thought it was not a process, but i'm pretty sure that's the definition-- it goes well with the idea that works are required.

i'd also clarify from what was said above, a lot of catholics try to down play the requirement of works in the catholic church "we just think works are required, that's all. don't read any more into it", yet, that's what many prots beleive too "saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone - martin luther". there is something more fundamental going on between the prots and catholics, i think it's what i described above per sanctification v. justification.

also prots have a profound idea going on that's sometimes not expressed very well. "it's not me, it's not my faith, it's jesus". i remember talking to a prot once, and i was asking him about how it's your own faith that saves, not something from yourself. and he said something to that effect. it is faith taht saves, he was saying, but it's a trancendent thing going on, more than mere belief etc. it's pretty profound. not necessarily precluded from catholic ideas of fatih, but ya don't see it as much. and it can't be as stressed, when one's works are involved and required at least in some sense to add to the sanctification to the justification.

i'd also add.. that the council of trent, doesn't necessarily teach one analytic framework of work saving. eg, think of those analogies above. or think of the different ways in which people describe how works are required, or the calculus of increasing as i was teaching. just because it teaches something doesn't mean it's exhaustive-- there's still wiggle room for varying views amongst good catholics, even wiggle room for yet another council to define yet even more.

Edited August 7, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Winchester]

Punch him in the stomach and say: "Save [i]this[/i], pal."

That's what I did to the Lutheran pastor next door. You might have heard of him: Pope Benedict.

[elizabeth09]

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]and then add that sanctification is often contrasted with justification. in CC sanctification justirfies, in prot, no.
i usually talk about the calculus of increasing in works etc- both sides require a continual increase etc.
prots require works, sanctification, the bettter systems of prots anyway, the ones that are formidable that you should concern yourself with anyway. ('we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone' -martin luther) the question is esseually what causes the justification? the grace of God with works, or jesus and faith alone. there's arguments to be made.[/quote]

i also usually say that it's a subtle distinction, in a way. a small point in a way, if both sides requrie works, grace saves ultimately, faith, jesus etc.
but i've heard it said, and it really does encapsulate the urgency of not overlooking even this small difference in the faith systems-- to beleive works justify is a subtle but damnable heresy. it's like mixing dust particles in a bucket of pure white paint or something to that effect.
i can see why prots make the argument that they do.

that reminds me, the popular expression of the prot idea of faith is that bible verse that says that 'though your sins be [dark], they shall be white as snow' or something to that effect, illustrating the cover that goes on top of the sins.
given this superficiality, catholics usually like to think 'you're not justified unless you are truly just, not just a judicial legal technicality'. i actually like this idea more, you are declared just, because you are in fact just- your sins are not in fact called a good thing, in some sort of bizarre legal process.

but then again there's aspects of the prot system i embrace over catho, and ultiately i don't take either completely.

[dairygirl4u2c]

and like OSAS, it also ties in with purgatory etc.
if you are not covered in this life, you would need purgatory in the next. that's why prots don't like prugatory among other reasons, obviously.

i'm not sure how one would ever be found completely just though, in the sense of getting good enough etc-- or even in the sense of what's done is done, we've all sinned and there's nothing we can do about it.
yea, it's hard to beleive that that would happen even for the best of us, even in an after life. that's why i would be more like 'part of them are just, or 'just enough' or just to the Xth degree, or something.
then agagain, the bible does say 'nothing unclean shall enter' into heaven. so essentially it's like, if there's no way we'd ever be able to get just ourself, how else but a tehcnicallity would we get heaven?
hmm

Edited August 9, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[MIKolbe]

James 2:24 works well, too.

St. Paul uses 'faith' and 'alone' numerous times in his letters, but only 'pairs' those 2 words up only once, in James 2:24.

[i]See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone[/i].