Trinity

[Dave]

Ironmonk's right. The Koran and the Bible contradict each other. They can't both be right. However, you seem to have chose to believe the Koran is right. You ought to take off the blinders and truly let God guide you, even if that means admitting you could be wrong.

[Jake Huether]

I'm sorry, Ayed, for not responding sooner.

just read the whole post and give your opinions about the lines of your books

Can you please specify which "books". I've read the post, but I don't know specifically what you would like my opinion on.

Thanks.

[ayed]

Ironmonk, Hi my forummate? are you right?

I wish you and ask you to read the Holy Qur'an before judging by deafault.

and prove what you have said.

Jake heuther , here what I have mentioned above in my topic:

1-"About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people”(luke 24:19)

2-“Ye men of Israel, hear these words,Jesus of Nazareth a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know”(Act 2:22)

3-Iesa(Jesus)says “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”(John 17:3).

4-“I confes before heaven,and call to witness everything that dwelleth upon the earth,that I am more than a man. For I am a man, born of woman,subject to the judgement of God;that live here like as other men,subjekt to common miseries”Barnabs(94 : 1)

Daveject:

"Ironmonk's right. The Koran and the Bible contradict each other.They can't both be right"

Ayed : prove this if you are sure of what you saying .

However, you seem to have chose to believe the Koran is right. You ought to take off the blinders and truly let God guide you, even if that means admitting you could be wrong"

ayed: either you evade answering my question or just a sort of stubborness.

The Holy Qu'ran and your books is another issue. just discuss this topic"Trinity"

[mark4IHM]

Ayed,

Civility is a virtue you seem to have mastered.

I read your opening. I intend no disrespect by not responding to it directly in this post. Rather, charity compels me to bypass niceties and tell you this:

Convert from your false religion or your soul will be condemned to die the eternal death. Embrace the cross of Christ and save your soul. He shed His Blood for you, shed Islam and enter the Church which proclaims the one true Faith. Outside of her there is no salvation.

[electricdisk]

Does anyone know if Muhammed died, then came back to life?

[Jake Huether]

1-"About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people”(luke 24:19)

You must note that the Gospel accounts are cronological accounts of the life of Christ written by his closest of friends. Therefore, knowing that they are cronologically written, we know also that at the beginning of Christ's life (and even up til the very end) there were people who doubted his divinity. And even those who believed in his Divinity, had not yet grasped (as we do today) how he was BOTH man and God together at the same time. Therefore, "they" (from "they replied") might not have yet understood that Christ was the Massiah, the Son of God, who was God and was with God (John 1).

2-“Ye men of Israel, hear these words,Jesus of Nazareth a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know”(Act 2:22)

Peter was refering to Jesus' humanity (both God and man). He wasn't making a statement about him NOT being God. Peter was the same person that was the FIRST to say that Jesus WAS GOD. (Matthey 16: 13-20).

3-Iesa(Jesus)says “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”(John 17:3).

This says NOT that Jesus wasn't God. AND doesn't exlude Christ from the previous possition. Again, if you read John Ch. 1, John himself admits that Jesus, the "light" was with God and WAS God.

4-“I confes before heaven,and call to witness everything that dwelleth upon the earth,that I am more than a man. For I am a man, born of woman,subject to the judgement of God;that live here like as other men,subjekt to common miseries”Barnabs(94 : 1)

We don't recognize Barnabs as Sacred Scripture. Barnabs, might have been in error. Or, as I would venture to guess, he was speaking of Jesus' humanity. Which is true. christ was born of a woman, subject to the judgment of God (and we know from Scripture that God judged him worthy - because He was His Son), etc.

Christ was FULLY MAN, and FULLY GOD. But He wasn't God the Father. He was God the Son. Same God, SAME being, different person of the SAME GOD.

It's confusing, but that's only because it's GOD - we're humans trying to describe OUR maker.

Hope that helps in the least.

Whatever made sense was, made sense because of God. I take blame for all the errors.

Peace! And have a nice weekend.

[ayed]

In the Name Allah , the Most compassionate, the Most gracious

thanks for all , members and visitors.

specil thanks to Jake Heuther who spent his best to share with me some important questions.

” About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people”(luke 24:19)

Jake Huether commented:

1- “And even those who believed in his Divinity…had not yet grasped (as we do today)

Ayed :

Fact : take it for granted: any mote of doubt in any belief whatsoever is ; nullifies an negates that belief.

Thus, since Jesus’ followers at that time and you, right now, are suspicious of his divinity; then it apparently negates what you forcibly try to intromit in your simple mind that Jesus is divine-man god!! Moreover, the dilemma is not in Jesus’ nature but in your simple mind of limited capacity which rejects anything beyond its reach. Someone may ask:” How do you know, Ayed? My answer is what Jake Huether has said:”how he was BOTH man and God together at the same time!”.

Ayed: my dear Jake Huether ,I ask you to operate your mind and temporarily turn off all you beliefs and rationalize the following :

If you can have a pen painted completely in black color and white color at the same time, then Jesus (peace be upon him)can be a man and a god.

If you can be in USA at 9 .A.M and in UK at the same hour, then Jesus can be a man and god at the same time.It is impossible because you will be either in USA or in UK. So is in Jesus’ case , He is either a man or a god.

If Jesus is on the earth , can he be in the heaven at the same second?

Jake Heuther commented,“might not have yet understood that Christ was the Massiah, the Son of God”

Ayed: your statement, “might not have yet” says that you are sure of Christ was the son of Allah and alludes that Jesus became, during the course of time , a son of Allah and a second god!

Just apply S.T --Substitution Test, on any verse to make sure that Jesus is a prophet and messenger neither a god nor a son:

@ “About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people”(luke 24:19)

@S.T :About God of Nazareth …He was a God powerful in word and deed before God…”

@“Ye men of Israel, hear these words,Jesus of Nazareth a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know”(Act 2:22)

@ “Ye men of Israel , hear these words, God of Nazareth a god approved of God among you by miracle and wonders and signs which God did by God.

Have you noticed?

2-“I confess before heaven, and call to witness everything that dwelleth upon the earth,that I am more than a man. For I am a man, born of woman,subject to the judgement of God;that live here like as other men,subjekt to common miseries”Barnabs(94 : 1)

@Jake Huether commented:

“We don't recognize Barnabs as Sacred Scripture”

Ayed : why don’t you recognize it? Please give me any convincing reasons.

Moreover, if you don’t recognize Barnabas’ Scripture, then why you do interpret the verse saying”“Barnabas might have been in error. Or, as I would venture to guess, he was speaking of Jesus' humanity?

What if Barnabas might have been right?

Dear, Jake Hethuer , fact cannot be relative .Fact is as the sun in the sky . It is easy for anyone, based on his own views, to interpret and manipulate such verses to chide in with his beliefs and free himself from verses that contradict his desires and views.

Jake Hethuer wrote“It's confusing, but that's only because it's GOD - we're humans trying to describe OUR maker”

Ayed: you were suspicious and said “And even those who believed in his Divinity…had not yet grasped (as we do today)AND later, you confirmed that the prophet Iesa is a god not fully man saying“It's confusing, but that's only because it's GOD”!!

Jake Heuther said“we're humans trying to describe OUR maker”

Ayed:at last , you have put a great boner!!! Is the fully man , Iesa(Jesus) who created our father and mother : Adam and Eve? is Jesus who created Noah, Moses and Ibraham who were before birth of Iesa(Jesus)?

How come a son of Maryam is the Maker of pre-Christ nations?

Christ was FULLY MAN, and FULLY GOD”

Ayed: why is it confusing? Because Iesa(Jesus) is #a prophet# -- a son of man , a teacher , master , a son of the Virgin , Maryam . Because Iesa(Jesus--peace be upon him) would walk on the earth , speak to his disciples and his people , sleep and get up , laugh and get upset , get hungry and thirsty , drink and eat , and answer the call of nature , then how could he be an eternal god?

In the alleged crucifixion, was he in the human part or the divine part? or both of them?

If you say that he was in the human part, then where was his divine one to help out and deliver him?

If you say that he was in the divine part, then where was his human one to help him?

If you say that he was in divine and human nature, then he died and won’t raise again. Who was keeping the seventh heavens and the earth at that time?three days and Allah is absent from the world?Who was taking care of people at that alleged three days?

Well, if Iesa(Jesus) was all-powerful , then why was he unable to save himself?

You believe in that Jesus was dead for three days, then who gave Jesus the life to raise again?

Thanks for all ,

Ayed

for visitors or members who have personl questions can contact me at

ayed4all@hotmail.com

[Jake Huether]

Ayed,

All of your statements can be answered with this simple sentance:

What is impossible for man, IS POSSIBLE with God.

You are effectively saying that God could not make a pen write in black and white at the same time. You are saying that God could not make me be in the US and the UK at the same second. And you are saying that God could not become a human if he wanted to.

You are saying that God can NOT do something. Is it possible for God to be limited by what we percieve to be logical?

If we turn off our beliefs and simpy use our minds, how can we expect to know God! Is he limited by our minds.

My mind tells me that nothing can be dropped and move up (becasue of gravity). Can God not change that?

Isn't Alah, all powerful, omnipotent, etc. etc. If he can do ANYTHING, then why are you saying he can't become human?

Is God limited to one person, like we are. Or can God be 3 persons, one being.

I would ask you to consider the difference between the definition of "person" and the definition of "being". This might help. God is ONE GOD. He is ONE BEING. But HE is three persons. "Persons" doesn't necessitate his being plural. Being necessitates singularity.

If I am 3 persons, but one being, I am singular. If I am 3 beings, THEN I am plural.

God is singular - ONE BEING, three persons. Each person is distinct, but they are the same ONE BEING.

It's a mistary. We cannot use logic or ration to try and "capture" this idea. It's God! We cannot rationalize God.

[ayed]

In the name of Allah, the Most gracious,the Most merciful

Allah says:

“Say (O Muhammad --Peace be upon him): "He is Allâh, (the) One”,"Allâh-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks)”, "He begets not, nor was He begotten;”, "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him"(112, 1:4)

Jake Heuther wrote:

Ayed : It is nice of you to say “I do not know” other than sum up my discusion in a short sentence by the pretense “What is impossible for man, IS POSSIBLE with God”

I do not talk about Allah’s ability .I do discuss about your ability , as man.

Jake Heuther “You are effectively saying that God could not make a pen write in black and white at the same time. You are saying that God could not make me be in the US and the UK at the same second. And you are saying that God could not become a human if he wanted to””You are saying that God can NOT do something. Is it possible for God to be limited by what we percieve to be logical?

Ayed : Jake ! Have you read my writings?or you just have fallacified my comments ?Please read and get what I have said before you respond.

Yes, Iesa is a mere prophet(peace be upon him)

Jake :”If we turn off our beliefs and simpy use our minds, how can we expect to know God! Is he limited by our minds”

Ayed:”yes , if you turn off your beliefs and cogitate the world about you , you will recognize it is created by only one Creator , #one god#.

”My mind tells me that nothing can be dropped and move up (becasue of gravity). Can God not change that?

Ayed: well, you might not want to meditate n the issue.

Jake “Isn't Alah, all powerful, omnipotent, etc. etc. If he can do ANYTHING, then why are you saying he can't become human”

Ayed “ If Allah(is all above what is said) become a human being , then who will keep heavens from caving in over your head?

Jake :”Is God limited to one person, like we are. Or can God be 3 persons, one being”

Ayed: Allah is only one God. He is definitly different from us.

I would ask you to consider the difference between the definition of "person" and the definition of "being". This might help. God is ONE GOD. He is ONE BEING. But HE is three persons. "Persons" doesn't necessitate his being plural. Being necessitates singularity.

If I am 3 persons, but one being, I am singular. If I am 3 beings, THEN I am plural.

God is singular - ONE BEING, three persons. Each person is distinct, but they are the same ONE BEING.

It's a mistary. We cannot use logic or ration to try and "capture" this idea. It's God! We cannot rationalize God.

Ayed: Jake ! have you a small sibling? If you have one at age of 7 or 9 , just ask him where is God? Just wait to where will he point out and tell me.

dear Jake !! I want you to take the following practical test setp by step:

-- raise up your right hand before your eyes,

-- put your thumb on the right forefinger and press forefinger down to be curved ,

-- now how many stretched finger do you have?Are they three fingers or one finger?

-- if they are three fingers , then your dogma is at stake and no slavation at all !!!because you worship three gods not one.Believe me man!!It is polythiesm which Allah almighty does not forgive anyone who worships another god with Him.

Questions :

1- why don’t you recognize Barnabs’ scripture?

2- You believe in that Jesus was dead for three days, then who gave Jesus the life to raise again?

3-what will become of the people of pre-Christ ? Moeses’ nation , Noah’s nation ?

Have my cordial greetings

Ayed

Ayed4all@hotmail.com

[Jake Huether]

dear Jake !! I want you to take the following practical test setp by step:

-- raise up your right hand before your eyes,

-- put your thumb on the right forefinger and press forefinger down to be curved ,

-- now how many stretched finger do you have?Are they three fingers or one finger?

-- if they are three fingers , then your dogma is at stake and no slavation at all !!!because you worship three gods not one.Believe me man!!It is polythiesm which Allah almighty does not forgive anyone who worships another god with Him.

Again, there is no way of showing "physically" how God is three persons and only ONE being. If you use this "practical" test, of course I will come to the conclusion that three fingurs are three. But that's not how God is.

Can I give you a practicle test:

--gather some H2O, and place it in a bucket at a temperature of 0.01C (0C = 273.16K), and a pressure of 6.1 mbar.

--Now you will note that there is vapor, liquid AND solid (this is water's triple point).

--So now, tell me: Is there anything other than H2O in the bucket? If there isn't, then our dogma is NOT at stake.

You see. Water can exist in three seperate states all at the same time without giving up it's nature, H2O.

This is faulty of course - there is nothing that can stamp into our limited minds the amesomeness of God. But it's better than looking at three fingurs.

God made humans in his image, and therefore, we can catch a glimps of him if we look at how he made us. He made us male and female (from Genesis 1). So, male, female and the love that bonds them in marriage are the image of God. God is ONE God. We believe in ONE God. But God is three persons (persons doesn't necessitate plural). The Father, the Son, and the Love that binds them together, the Holy Spirit, is ONE God.

Jesus was human and God! And the reason the heavens didn't crash in on us when God became man, was becasue only one of the 3 persons became man; the Son. God the Son became man so that he could die for us. Now, God didn't "die", it was Jesus' humanity that died for 3 days. But Jesus, the Son, God, tasted death as a human. The Father never became man. The Holy Spirit never became man. The Son became man. God became man. One God, three persons, ONE being.

Pray about it. You'll begin to understand more and more. God will reveal himselve to you as he is! Three persons, on being.

Questions :

1- why don’t you recognize Barnabs’ scripture?

For the same reason we recognize Johns AS Scripture. God spoke to the Early Church, when they decided to pick which Scriptures were inspired by God. God didn't inspire them to pick Barnabs' scripture. God did inspire them to pick Matthey Mark Luke and John.

2- You believe in that Jesus was dead for three days, then who gave Jesus the life to raise again?

Jesus conqured death himself. While the human (flesh) was dead, the Son was Alive! After three days, God rose himself up in the flesh!

3-what will become of the people of pre-Christ ? Moeses’ nation , Noah’s nation ?

If you remember from the Bible, when Jesus died, before he rose again, he descended into hades. It is here that he preached to those "pre-Christ" people. No one went into heaven before Christ's death and resurection. Christ's death opend the Gates of heaven.

Those who died before Christ, I'm sure knew once they were dead that God was Father Son and Spirit. The Son always existed. God was always 3 persons, one being. But Jesus came to show us in a human way, how God was! It was God's gift to us to reconsile his fallen nation to himself. It was his gift to us to show us Himself in light of our human intelect.

Hope this helped more.

[ayed]

In the name Of Allah , the Most Compassionate, the Most Gracious

Jake ! Thank you so much. In another post, as I said, you cannot correspond three images that come into your mind when the three persons are mentioned.

Fahter as an old man, the son as a good-looking guy, and the holy ghost as a white dove.

Jake :” Jesus conqured death himself. While the human (flesh) was dead, the Son was Alive! After three days, God rose himself up in the flesh”

1-Ayed : Jesus gave life to himself ?Did he commit suicide ?How come a dead identity gave life to himself ?Could you give me some verses from you’re the holy bible?

Jake :” Those who died before Christ, I'm sure knew once they were dead that God was Father Son and Spirit”

2-Ayed :Could you please give me some proofs from your bible?

3- Why didn’t you recognize Barnabas’ book?

Have my greetings,

Ayed

ayed4all@hotmail.com

[Jake Huether]

Jake ! Thank you so much. In another post, as I said, you cannot correspond three images that come into your mind when the three persons are mentioned.

Fahter as an old man, the son as a good-looking guy, and the holy ghost as a white dove.

3- Why didn’t you recognize Barnabas’ book?

Have my greetings,

Ayed

   

ayed4all@hotmail.com

Thank you Ayed,

Yes, and in another post I stated that it isn't the same - it is more like looking at liquid, solid, gas. Three states of the same substance. But that is still flawed. God is just God. That is all I can say. We can take analogy after analogy but nothing will be sufficient to describe God. You cannot use creation to describe COMPLETELY the creator! God has shown us that He is Father Son and Holy Spirit.

1-Ayed : Jesus gave life to himself ?Did he commit suicide ?How come a dead identity gave life to himself ?Could you give me some verses from you’re the holy bible?

Jesus is fully God, fully man. He did not commit suicide, he was murdered. You believe in the after life, don't you? So, when your mortal body dies, your soul is still alive. Jesus, having a human body, soul, and spirit ALSO had a divine soul and Spirit! When his body died, his eternal soul was still alive (like ours when we die). But Christs eternal soul was human and divine! So he conquered death! Unlike our souls which are only human.

I will try to produce quotes later - but I'm pressed for time. I have a dr.s appointment to check up on my teeth.

3- Why didn’t you recognize Barnabas’ book?

Have my greetings,

Because the Church leaders who chose which Scripturs were Divinly inspired did not find Barnabas' book as such. If I had the gift that those Church leaders had, to read a book and know that it was Divine, then I suppose I could explain more clearly why exaclty Barnabas' book wasn't. Sorry.

Equally so, I do not know why John's Gospel was chosen specifically. I only know that those who chose it knew that it was Divinely inspired.

take care. God bless.