Trinity

[ayed]

In the name of Allah, the Most merciful,the Most gracious

Allah says:

“Say (O Muhammad --Peace be upon him): "He is Allâh, (the) One”,"Allâh-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks)”, "He begets not, nor was He begotten;”, "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him"(112, 1:4)

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thank you for discussing with me some beliefs and divine teachings.

Mind you that I appreciate any fair comments or even personal attacks

My question is :

Did the Holy Spirit , through Iesa, descend from Allah(God)?

Thank you for all as many as your hearts’ pulses.

Ayed ,

:)

Edited August 12, 2003 by ayed

[cmotherofpirl]

God sent his Son to redeem the world.

THe Holy Spirit is the love that flows between the Father and Son.

The Holy Spirit is the third person of God.

[ReformationNow]

In the name of Allah, the Most merciful,the Most gracious

Allah says:

“Say (O Muhammad --Peace be upon him): "He is Allâh, (the) One”,"Allâh-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks)”, "He begets not, nor was He begotten;”, "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him"(112, 1:4)

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thank you for discussing with me some beliefs and divine teachings.

Mind you that I appreciate any fair comments or even personal attacks

My question is :

Did the Holy Spirit , through Iesa, descend from Allah(God)?

Thank you for all as many as your hearts’ pulses.

Ayed ,

John 3:16(KJV) "For God so loved the world, that He gave us His only begottenson, that whosoever believeth on him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Before the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ, the Holy Spirit only moved in certain people. After the Ascension of Christ, the Holy Spirit came to all believers because Christ had ascended to heaven. The Holy Spirit proceeded forth from God because Christ's work had finished.

[Jake Huether]

Note - Jesus, the SON was begotten, NOT made.

Begotten does not mean made, and it isn't an indication of the SON coming AFTER the Father. Jesus, the Father, and the Love between them (the Holy Spirit) are co-eternal. Jesus is ONE in BEING with the Father. They are different persons, but ONE in being. That is one being (God), three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

They created humanity in their image. So, if we look no further than the human family, we see how God is. Man, Woman, and the life giving (child giving) love between them! When you are married, you are still an individual, but you are ONE family. Jesus is an individual person, but He is still ONE God (with the Father and the Holy Spirit).

[Theologian in Training]

In the name of Allah, the Most merciful,the Most gracious

Allah says:

“Say (O Muhammad --Peace be upon him): "He is Allâh, (the) One”,"Allâh-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks)”, "He begets not, nor was He begotten;”, "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him"(112, 1:4)

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thank you for discussing with me some beliefs and divine teachings.

Mind you that I appreciate any fair comments or even personal attacks

My question is :

Did the Holy Spirit , through Iesa, descend from Allah(God)?

Thank you for all as many as your hearts’ pulses.

Ayed ,

If Jesus is not God at all, then how are we saved?

[ReformationNow]

If Jesus is not God at all, then how are we saved?

Dude...you ain't gonna convince a Muslim with that.

[Chrysologus]

Thank you for all as many as your hearts’ pulses.

You're welcome. :rolleyes:

[Chrysologus]

ayed, your argument seems to be that there are verses in the Qu'ran which say that God doesn't beget. How will that convince us when the New Testament says exactly the opposite? We don't accept the canonicity of the Qu'ran, so you'll have to either first convince us that it is the final Word of God, or find a different way to demonstrate that Jesus is not God...which is impossible, because JESUS IS LORD!

[hyperdulia again]

"Thank you for all as many as your hearts’ pulses"

Welcome Ayed. You are entirely too kind. :D

We don't believe that the Qu'ran is the word of God, you are not going to succeed in convincing anyone here that it is. I would however be interested in hearing more about what the Holy Qu'ran says about Isa and Miryam.

Blessings

Edited August 12, 2003 by hyperdulia again

[Theologian in Training]

Dude...you ain't gonna convince a Muslim with that.

was asking him a question, definitely not my definitive answer.

God Bless

[ironmonk]

If Jesus is not God, and just a prophet....

How could He claim to be the Son of God, and heal people? If He was just a prophet, He would have been lying. If He was lying, then He could not heal.

How could it be that Moses and Elijah came to be physically seen talking to Jesus, by the Apostles...?

How could it be that the Old Testament speaks of the Messiah (Son of God), and Jesus met all prophesies.

God Bless,

ironmonk

[ayed]

In the name of Allah, the Most merciful,the Most gracious

Allah says:

“Say (O Muhammad --Peace be upon him): "He is Allâh, (the) One”,"Allâh-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks)”, "He begets not, nor was He begotten;”, "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him"(112, 1:4)

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My dear members and readers , kindly, disconnect the line and read thoroughly :

cmotherofpirl says:

1-“God sent his Son”

Ayed: let us parse this phrase :

God : subject--in nominative case

Sent : transitive verb in past tense

His son object in accusative case .accordingly :

God sent Himself Or God sent themselves Or Gods sent themselves which is unacceptable to human mind.

The reality is that Allah has sent iesa(Jesus) to his people for calling “Oneness of the Lord” which has mentioned in your books.

2-“The Holy Spirit is the love that flows between the Father and Son”

Ayed:here again the same case..the Holy spirit is a disassocited identity flows from the original (the father) to the destination (the son).So, you have divided three identities

divided three identities nullify and refute unity .Thus, there is one Allah(God) , His messenger(Iesa) and Gabriel (the Archangel which Allah has sent for Iesa to teach his nation , the oneness of Allah(God)

3-“The Holy Spirit is the third person of God”

Ayed:why do you say that you believe in one God while there are three Gods?It seems to me that you believe in three Gods are mounted on a single pivot or God of three branches:Which are impossible for human being’s mind to accept or digest.

ReformationNow

1-“John 3:16(KJV) "For God so loved the world, that He gave us His only begottenson, that whosoever believeth on him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ayed:I only believe in Iesa as a messenger of Allah and His Word thrown over the Virgin Maryam .Mary got pregnant with Iesa by Allah’s(His command) sent by Gabriel(archangel)

2-“Before the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ, the Holy Spirit only moved in certain people. After the Ascension of Christ, the Holy Spirit came to all believers because Christ had ascended to heaven. The Holy Spirit proceeded forth from God because Christ's work had finished”

Ayed:well, what was Iesa’s main goal? To whom the Holy Spirit moved?Who were they?

Jake huether

1-“Note - Jesus, the SON was begotten, NOT made”

Ayed :” could you explain what do you mean by”begotten”?

2-“Begotten does not mean made, and it isn't an indication of the SON coming AFTER the Father. Jesus, the Father, and the Love between them (the Holy Spirit) are co-eternal. Jesus is ONE in BEING with the Father. They are different persons, but ONE in being. That is one being (God), three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)”

Ayed: “co-eternal” well, the prefix “co” means “complement of “ or “helper “or”is as …as”

If so,then Allah(the Lord)(above all what we say) is accused of weakness and no longer All-powerfull !!??in that He needs supporter to Help Him!!?

If you respect the father(Allah) , then why do you say that Iesa(Jesus—peace be upon him) is His co-eternal?

”They created humanity in their image. So, if we look no further than the human family, we see how God is. Man, Woman, and the life giving (child giving) love between them! When you are married, you are still an individual, but you are ONE family. Jesus is an individual person, but He is still ONE God (with the Father and the Holy Spirit)

Ayed: hold on man! “They created” Who are they? When did they create humanity? This is another point of weakness which the Lord is accused of !!this means there are two Gods created this universe?

Just ask youself” what was before Iesa(Jesus)’s birth? Was there three gods or One?

Theologian in training

If Jesus is not God at all, then how are we saved?

Who was before Iesa(Jesus)? Isn’t He Allah(The Father as you believe in)?so far, I notice that you really venerate and worship Iesa(Jesus) much more as a God than the Father Who deserves wohrshipping ??

We are saved by Allah , our solely Lord , our Creator and universe’s . By Allah’s mercy , He will save us .That is, who are pious and faithfull to Allah. Salvation is by your good deeds not through Allah’s creatures.If you believe in Iesa(Jesus) as a way of salvation, then this is third accusation of Allah(god) for being unjustice ? Why? The answer is :

what would and will become of people before Jesus’s birth?let us call it “pre-salvation nations”?

Chrysologe

ayed, your argument seems to be that there are verses in the Qu'ran which say that God doesn't beget. How will that convince us when the New Testament says exactly the opposite? We don't accept the canonicity of the Qu'ran, so you'll have to either first convince us that it is the final Word of God, or find a different way to demonstrate that Jesus is not God...which is impossible, because JESUS IS LORD”

Ayed:could you please mention that lines from NT?

I do not ask you to accept the Holy Quran.It is up to you. I mention some verses as a “foreword”

As for Iesa(Jesus – peace be upon him), he is not God , here are some irrefutable obvious proofs from your books if you really believe in them :

1-"About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people”(luke 24:19)

2-“Ye men of Israel, hear these words,Jesus of Nazareth a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know”(Act 2:22)

3-Iesa(Jesus)says “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”(John 17:3).

4-“I confes before heaven,and call to witness everything that dwelleth upon the earth,that I am more than a man. For I am a man, born of woman,subject to the judgement of God;that live here like as other men,subjekt to common miseries”Barnabs(94 : 1)

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hyperdualia again

We don't believe that the Qu'ran is the word of God, you are not going to succeed in convincing anyone here that it is. I would however be interested in hearing more about what the Holy Qu'ran says about Isa and Miryam.

Ayed: as I have stated earlier that I “discuss” not”convince”.

Here are some holy verses about Iesa and Maryam(Mary):

And mention in the Book (the Qur'ân, O Muhammad SAW , the story of) Maryam (Mary), when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east”>>

She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh [angel Jibrael (Gabriel)], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects>> She said: "Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allâh) from you, if you do fear Allâh">> )The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son">> She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?">> He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me (Allâh): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allâh), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allâh)' ">> So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place (ie Bethlehem valley about - miles from Jerusalem)>> And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!">> Then [the babe 'Iesa (Jesus) or Jibrael (Gabriel)] cried unto her from below her, saying: "Grieve not! Your Lord has provided a water stream under you;”>> "And shake the trunk of date-palm towards you, it will let fall fresh ripe-dates upon you">> "So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: 'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allâh) so I shall not speak to any human being this day'">> Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him They said: "O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariya (an unheard mighty thing)>> "O sister (ie the like) of Hârûn (Aaron) [not the brother of Mûsa (Moses), but he was another pious man at the time of Maryam (Mary)]! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman">> Then she pointed to him They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?">> "He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allâh, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;">> "And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salât (prayer), and Zakât, as long as I live">> "And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest”>> "And Salâm (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!">> Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute)>> It befits not (the Majesty of) Allâh that He should beget a son [this refers to the slander of Christians against Allâh, by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allâh] Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him) When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is”>> ['Iesa (Jesus) said]: "And verily Allâh is my Lord and your Lord So worship Him (Alone) That is the Straight Path (Allâh's Religion of Islâmic Monotheism which He did ordain for all of His Prophets)" [Tafsir At-Tabarî](Maryam , 19 , 16:36)

“And (remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allâh has chosen you, purified you (from polytheism and disbelief), and chosen you above the women of the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinns) (of her lifetime)"

O Mary! "Submit yourself with obedience to your Lord (Allâh, by worshipping none but Him Alone) and prostrate yourself, and Irkâ'i (bow down etc) along with Ar-Râki'ûn (those who bow down etc)"

“This is a part of the news of the Ghaib (unseen, ie the news of the past nations of which you have no knowledge) which We inspire you with (O Muhammad SAW) You were not with them, when they cast lots with their pens as to which of them should be charged with the care of Maryam (Mary); nor were you with them when they disputed”(Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allâh gives you the glad tidings of a Word ("Be!" - and he was! ie 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)) from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allâh"

"He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous"

“She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me" He said: "So (it will be) for Allâh creates what He wills When He has decreed something, He says to it only: "Be!" and it is”

“And He (Allâh) will teach him ['Iesa (Jesus)] the Book and Al-Hikmah (ie the Sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom, etc), (and) the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)

“And will make him ['Iesa (Jesus)] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allâh's Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allâh's Leave And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe”

“And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurât (Torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord So fear Allâh and obey me”

“Truly! Allâh is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (Alone) This is the Straight Path”

Then when 'Iesa (Jesus) came to know of their disbelief, he said: "Who will be my helpers in Allâh's Cause?" Al-Hawâriûn (the disciples) said: "We are the helpers of Allâh; we believe in Allâh, and bear witness that we are Muslims (ie we submit to Allâh)"

Our Lord! We believe in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger ['Iesa (Jesus)]; so write us down among those who bear witness (to the truth ie Lâ ilâha ill-Allâh - none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh)

And they (disbelievers) plotted [to kill 'Iesa (Jesus) <><>], and Allâh planned too And Allâh is the Best of the planners”

“And (remember) when Allâh said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that 'Iesa (Jesus) is Allâh's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allâh) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allâh, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, eg Muhammad SAW, 'Iesa (Jesus), Mûsa (Moses), etc, or in His Holy Books, eg the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Qur'ân] till the Day of Resurrection Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute"(Al-Umran – 3 , 1:55)

Ironmonk,

your questions are answered as mentioned above.

many thanks as many as seonds you spend reading my essay

Ayed :)

[Jake Huether]

Ayed :” could you explain what do you mean by”begotten”?

Specifically speaking, the word "begotten" means to Father. The Father, Fathered the Son. But Ayed, I would ask that you not get caught up in terminology. We are using a human language to try to convey a Divine truth. Can one really explain God with human words? We know that the Son is the Son of the Father, therefore He is begotten. But the Son was not made.

Ayed: “co-eternal” well, the prefix “co” means “complement of “ or “helper “or”is as …as”

If so,then Allah(the Lord)(above all what we say) is accused of weakness and no longer All-powerfull !!??in that He needs supporter to Help Him!!?

If you respect the father(Allah) , then why do you say that Iesa(Jesus—peace be upon him) is His co-eternal?

Again, you are merely trying to pick me appart on the basis of grahmer. Step past the grammer and please try to see the "big picture". By co-eternal, I mean that the Son has been with the Father (with the Holy Spirit) for eternity (i.e. infinity in both directions). Allah (the Father - presumably) is ONE with the Son and the Holy Spirit. He doesn't "need" the Son for help - Him and the Son are ONE. You aren't trying to get the point. They aren't seperat God's who help eachother out. They are ONE GOD. But God, who is so great that we cannot put a definition on Him, has revealed Himself to us as three distinct persons. Don't think of persons like you and I are two people. Because you are confusing persons for "beings". We humans are one being and one person at the same time. God is 3 persons ONE being. Or are you saying that God cannot be something. I think your definition of God puts a limit on him.

To clarify though. Jesus took flesh when he came to earth born of a Virgin, Mary. But his Divinity (Soul and Spirit) were eternal with God the Father. The Son, therefore, has been the Son FOREVER. But Jesus, God in the flesh, took flesh at a certain time in history. Now the Son has a BODY forevermore.

Ayed: hold on man! “They created” Who are they? When did they create humanity? This is another point of weakness which the Lord is accused of !!this means there are two Gods created this universe?

Just ask youself” what was before Iesa(Jesus)’s birth? Was there three gods or One?

That is exactly what the Old Testemant says. And it is a forshowing of his triune nature. Again, they aren't three God's. They are ONE God. Before Jesus Birth, there was the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Like I said. God, the Son, took flesh when he was born to Mary by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus, therefore, was pure God and pure man at the same time! He had a human Body, soul, and spirit. But his humanity was perfectly in line with His Divine SOUL and SPIRIT!

Our God is ONE God. He has 3 persons however. Kinda like the 3 leaf shamrock (one shamrock - 3 leaves). Or like water H2o (one compound - three states). Although, unlike water, God exists in His 3 persons at the same time!

Jesus said, "I am in the Father, and He in me". "Whoever sees me sees the Father." "I and the Father are One". "No one can come to the Father, but through me." "No one can come to me unless the Father bids him."

Jesus is the Son of God made flesh (his flesh came later - but his Divinity is eternal). The Son has existed for eternity. The Father for eternity. The Holy Spriti (the Love that proceeds from the Father and the Son) for eternity. One God for ever and ever.

[ayed]

Jake Huether

could you please read all the stuff?

just read the whole post and give your opinions about the lines of your books

thank you all

read from you soon

Ayed

[ironmonk]

If Jesus is not God, then the koran is wrong.

If Jesus is God, then the koran is wrong.

God cannot be wrong.

The OT tells of the Son of God coming to earth.

The NT shows and tells that the Son of God is Jesus.

The koran teaches that the New Testament and Old Testament are works of God.

The koran says that Jesus is not the Son of God.

End of Story.

You need to stop saying blasphemy about our Lord Jesus Christ.

the koran and islam falls apart under scrutiny. If the koran were correct, then the OT and NT have to be wrong and God must have changed.

God does not change.

Since the koran says that the OT and NT are works of God; then mohammed was wrong. the koran is wrong. Is mohammad greater than God? No... therefore mohammed must be wrong.

God Bless,

ironmonk