No Compromise On Vatican Ii: Fellay

[Era Might]

St. Paul gives instructions for ordaining Bishops:

[quote]Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil; moreover he must be well thought of by outsiders, or he may fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

--1Timothy 3:2-7[/quote]
Note that the standards are not solely doctrinal. St. Paul even says that the man "must be well thought of by outsiders."

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1942128' date='Aug 6 2009, 01:39 PM']Note that the standards are not solely doctrinal. St. Paul even says that the man "must be well thought of by outsiders."[/quote]
Then we best stop ordaining bishops now, because no one should be a bishop if he is admired by our culture.

Honestly, I do not give a flying fig what any bishop (including the pope) thinks about the holocaust.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1942128' date='Aug 6 2009, 01:39 PM']Note that the standards are not solely doctrinal. St. Paul even says that the man "must be well thought of by outsiders."[/quote]
By the way, I see nothing in St. Paul's comments that could in any conceivable manner be interpreted as a claim that a man's views on secular history should have any influence on whether or not he is consecrated to serve as a bishop.

The text in question concerns a man's moral character, and it is a stretch to try and apply them to the issue presently under discussion.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1942130' date='Aug 6 2009, 04:42 PM']Then we best stop ordaining bishops now, because no one should be a bishop if he is admired by our culture.

Honestly, I do not give a flying fig what any bishop (including the pope) thinks about the holocaust.[/quote]

Would a member of the Nazi party be an acceptable candidate for ordination in the Orthodox Church?

S.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1942118' date='Aug 6 2009, 01:25 PM']I believe we can safely say that a candidate for ordination in the Orthodox Church who is blatantly anti-Semitic and denies the Holocaust is perfectly acceptable to be ordained in the Orthodox Church as such views are entirely acceptable to the Orthodox Church. No orthodox bishop would object to any priest who regularly espoused such views.[/quote]
Ah, you clearly like to paint with a broad brush.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1942125' date='Aug 6 2009, 04:33 PM']Claiming, like Bishop Williamson, that only 300,000 Jews were killed in the Holocaust does not necessarily make someone antisemitic.[/quote]


I was not speaking at all of Bishop Williamson. I am merely observing that an anti-Semite who denies the Holocaust is a perfectly acceptable candidate for the Orthodox priesthood as I know of no reason such a person would be excluded.

S.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1942145' date='Aug 6 2009, 04:51 PM']Ah, you clearly like to paint with a broad brush.[/quote]


I am merely stating that the Orthodox Church would happily ordain such a person as I know of no reason they would exclude him.

S.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1942141' date='Aug 6 2009, 01:49 PM']Would a member of the Nazi party be an acceptable candidate for ordination in the Orthodox Church?

S.[/quote]
I doubt it, because Nazism was a neo-pagan movement, and the Orthodox Church (even more than the Catholic Church) has resisted paganism in all forms (e.g., rejecting the use of pagan philosophy in theology).

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1942141' date='Aug 6 2009, 02:49 PM']Would a member of the Nazi party be an acceptable candidate for ordination in the Orthodox Church?

S.[/quote]

That's not a fair question for his argument. Denying the holocaust has nothing to do with supporting evil. A nazi stands for evil, and mass murder etc. Simply denying something happened, whether he be blatantly wrong or not, is no comparison.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1942151' date='Aug 6 2009, 04:56 PM']That's not a fair question for his argument. Denying the holocaust has nothing to do with supporting evil. A nazi stands for evil, and mass murder etc. Simply denying something happened, whether he be blatantly wrong or not, is no comparison.[/quote]

I am merely trying to ascertain what are acceptable qualities for ordination in the Orthodox Church. What is wrong with asking the question? Apotheoun has stated that one may deny the Holocaust and still be ordained in the Orthodox Church. I am asking just what are the qualities Orthodoxy accepts in a candidate for the priesthood?? If Apotheoun does not want to elaborate here on just what those qualities are we can always start a seperate thread in which he can address the question in more depth.

S.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1942150' date='Aug 6 2009, 04:56 PM']I doubt it, because Nazism was a neo-pagan movement, and the Orthodox Church (even more than the Catholic Church) has resisted paganism in all forms (e.g., rejecting the use of pagan philosophy in theology).[/quote]

You doubt it. But does Orthodoxy take a formal position on the matter?? Just where does the Orthodox church spell out what are acceptable qualities in a candidate for ordination??


S.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1942254' date='Aug 6 2009, 04:33 PM']I am merely trying to ascertain what are acceptable qualities for ordination in the Orthodox Church. What is wrong with asking the question? Apotheoun has stated that one may deny the Holocaust and still be ordained in the Orthodox Church. I am asking just what are the qualities Orthodoxy accepts in a candidate for the priesthood?? If Apotheoun does not want to elaborate here on just what those qualities are we can always start a seperate thread in which he can address the question in more depth.

S.[/quote]

The difference is that nazism and all that it entails involves and supports sinful actions. Denying the holocaust does not do so unless one takes it to the unnecessary extreme of anti-semitism. It is a factual error that can make one look stupid, but not sinful or un-Catholic.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1942298' date='Aug 6 2009, 08:24 PM']The difference is that nazism and all that it entails involves and supports sinful actions. Denying the holocaust does not do so unless one takes it to the unnecessary extreme of anti-semitism. It is a factual error that can make one look stupid, but not sinful or un-Catholic.[/quote]

?? That doesn't answer my more general questions about what the Orthodox church expects of candidates for the priesthood. I expect Apotheoun is better able to answer that. Nonetheless, to address what you are saying, I would disagree that Holocaust denial only makes one look "stupid but not sinful". [b][/b]The Holocaust did happen, and to deny it is to lie. And lying is sinful. That is why the Pope is so upset.[b][/b] Consider his words:
"The third statement: in these days when we remember the Shoah, images come to mind from my repeated visits to Auschwitz, one of the concentration camps in which the heinous slaughter of millions of Jews occurred, innocent victims of a blind racial and religious hatred. As I affectionately renew the expression of my full and unquestionable solidarity with our fellow receivers of the First Covenant, I hope that the memory of the Shoah will lead humanity to reflect upon the unfathomable power of evil when it conquers the heart of man.

May the Shoah be a warning for all against forgetfulness, denial or reductionism, because violence committed against one single human being is violence against all. No man is an island, as a famous poet wrote. May the Shoah teach both old and new generations that only the arduous path of listening and dialogue, of love and forgiveness leads peoples, cultures and religions of the world to the desired goal of fraternity and peace in truth. May violence no longer degrade the dignity of man!"

S.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Skinzo

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1942317' date='Aug 6 2009, 07:18 PM']?? That doesn't answer my more general questions about what the Orthodox church expects of candidates for the priesthood. I expect Apotheoun is better able to answer that. Nonetheless, to address what you are saying, I would disagree that Holocaust denial only makes one look "stupid but not sinful". [b][/b]The Holocaust did happen, and to deny it is to lie. And lying is sinful.[/quote]

The Trojan War happened, too. In addition to the oral tradition that eventually became the mythological [i]Iliad[/i] (as well as the rest of the Epic Cycle), we have archaeological evidence that proves that there was indeed a war between the Greeks and Troy.

It would certainly be ignorant to deny that the Mycenaeans sacked Ilium, but if one sincerely does not believe that the sacking of Troy was an historical event, it is neither a lie or a sin to say that there was no Trojan War.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1942338' date='Aug 6 2009, 09:48 PM']The Trojan War happened, too. In addition to the oral tradition that eventually became the mythological [i]Iliad[/i] (as well as the rest of the Epic Cycle), we have archaeological evidence that proves that there was indeed a war between the Greeks and Troy.

It would certainly be ignorant to deny that the Mycenaeans sacked Ilium, but if one sincerely does not believe that the sacking of Troy was an historical event, it is neither a lie or a sin to say that there was no Trojan War.[/quote]

You may wish to start a seperate thread on the Trojan War or ask Benedict XVI what this has to do with Holocaust denial, something he considers "intolerable" and "unacceptable". The Vatican said: “Bishop Williamson, in order to be admitted to episcopal functions within the Church, will have to take his distance, in an absolutely unequivocal and public fashion, from his position on the Shoah, which the Holy Father was not aware of when the excommunication was lifted.”


S.