Infant Baptism

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936872' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:14 PM']Again, I know that it is not in our time but God's time that the answer shall be revealed, but, my question is why is it taking so long. When I was just a going through the motions Catholic, my mom who is devout, would always bug me as to when I was going to get my children baptized. She always wanted me to get them baptized as soon as I could after they were born.

I know that one of the Church fathers stated not to even wait 8 days as done by the Jews in circumsicion.[/quote]

That Church Father was right on:

"Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people, but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently, but so that, when danger of death is imminent, they be baptized in the form of the Church, early without delay, even by a layman or woman, if a priest should be lacking, just as is contained more fully in the decree of the Armenians" (The Ecumenical Council of Florence: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1349)

Edited July 31, 2009 by Resurrexi

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936872' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:14 PM']Again, I know that it is not in our time but God's time that the answer shall be revealed, but, my question is why is it taking so long. When I was just a going through the motions Catholic, my mom who is devout, would always bug me as to when I was going to get my children baptized. She always wanted me to get them baptized as soon as I could after they were born.

I know that one of the Church fathers stated not to even wait 8 days as done by the Jews in circumsicion.[/quote]

Oh, we should certainly endeavor to have our children baptized as soon as we possibly can. The Church is very clear on this. God [i]can[/i] work outside of the sacraments, but that doesn't mean that they themselves aren't important!! They are the ordinary means of salvation and we should not take them for granted. Especially when one is aware of their necessity.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1936879' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:20 PM']God [i]can[/i] work outside of the sacraments, but that doesn't mean that they themselves aren't important!![/quote]

But we do not know if God does indeed justify infants who die without baptism of water before their death (with the exception of infant martyrs).

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1936879' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:20 PM']Oh, we should certainly endeavor to have our children baptized as soon as we possibly can. The Church is very clear on this. God [i]can[/i] work outside of the sacraments, but that doesn't mean that they themselves aren't important!! They are the ordinary means of salvation and we should not take them for granted. Especially when one is aware of their necessity.[/quote]

I praise God so much as I am learning more and more about the Church and why we are given the sacraments. No, we should never take them for granted. I now worry with grief about my nephew who is not baptized yet.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1936885' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:23 PM']But we do not know if God does indeed justify infants who die without baptism of water before their death (with the exception of infant martyrs).[/quote]

True, we don't know. Which is why we ought to work with the sacraments.

But when the question comes to those infants who, for whatever reason, did not receive baptism... Well, like we've said. We don't know. But God [i]can[/i] work outside of the sacraments. He's not bound to them. So, it's entirely possible that in his great mercy and love they too may reach salvation.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936886' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:24 PM']I praise God so much as I am learning more and more about the Church and why we are given the sacraments. No, we should never take them for granted. I now worry with grief about my nephew who is not baptized yet.[/quote]

I have a niece and two nephews who are not baptized. I pray for them and their parents each and everyday. And it is a holy desire to wish them baptized. But, I have great hope that God will not punish these little ones for their parents' ignorance.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1936903' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:31 PM']I have a niece and two nephews who are not baptized. I pray for them and their parents each and everyday. And it is a holy desire to wish them baptized. But, I have great hope that God will not punish these little ones for their parents' ignorance.[/quote]

More and more my sister is getting involved in the church she is now attending. My niece, her older daughter, who is 5 was attending mass off and on, has even stated that her church now is much more fun, than ours'.

It really does sadden me. The other day when she was at my house, she was looking at my altar. There were several little prayer books and she took one of them. They have all the Catholic prayers and pictures of the saints. We both were looking at the pictures and and I told her to never forget Mama Mary. She knows that she is the mother of Jesus. I am hoping that if I plant some seeds, when she gets older, she may come back to the Catholic faith.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1936877' date='Jul 31 2009, 05:18 PM']That Church Father was right on:

"Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people, but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently, but so that, when danger of death is imminent, they be baptized in the form of the Church, early without delay, even by a layman or woman, if a priest should be lacking, just as is contained more fully in the decree of the Armenians" (The Ecumenical Council of Florence: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1349)[/quote]

I was contemplating doing a lay baptism for my nephew. I don't know if you read the circumstances, which there is a post. Would this be considered a valid baptism?

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936955' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:58 PM']I was contemplating doing a lay baptism for my nephew. I don't know if you read the circumstances, which there is a post. Would this be considered a valid baptism?[/quote]

Unfortunately, I don't think you can... I mean, you [i]could[/i], as in, it would be valid... but...

I asked my spiritual director if I could baptize my niece. And he said no, not unless there was a "reason to believe the child would be raised Catholic."

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936955' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:58 PM']I was contemplating doing a lay baptism for my nephew. I don't know if you read the circumstances, which there is a post. Would this be considered a valid baptism?[/quote]

Provided that you have the intention of doing that which the Church does and provided that you pour water on your infant nephew's head while saying: 'I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,' your infant nephew would doubtless be validly baptized, regardless of any other circumstances.

It must be noted that, for you nephew's baptism to be licit (i.e., in accordance with canon law), your nephew would need to be baptized by a Catholic priest or deacon with all the rites prescribed by the Church (and with the consent of at least one parent or guardian) unless he was in danger of death.

However, "If the infant is in danger of death, he is to be baptized without any delay" (CIC, can. 867 §2). "In a case of necessity, any person who has the requisite intention may do so" (CIC, can. 861 §2).

If your nephew were ever in serious danger of death (e.g., from a grave illness), it would certainly be acceptable for you to baptize him. Nay more, if you were present with your nephew, it would be your duty to baptize him.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

I would like to add this quote from the [i]Code[/i] to what I said earlier:

"An infant of Catholic parents, indeed even of non-Catholic parents, may in danger of death be baptised even if the parents are opposed to it." (CIC, can. 868 § 2)

Edited August 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1936766' date='Jul 31 2009, 03:25 PM']"It (The Roman Church) teaches. . . . . that the souls . . . . . of those who die in mortal sin, or with only original sin descend immediately into hell; however, to be punished with different penalties and in different places." (Pope John XII, [i]Nequaquam sine dolore[/i]: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 926)

"Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds" (Ecumenical Council of Florence: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1306).[/quote]


Original Sin MUST be removed. AMen. Point? Noone ever says that everybody with original sin on their soul has it removed. You read your thinking in to these passages. Christ can certainly remove the OS at the instant of death for whatever reason he may see fit and that in my mind would not contradict the passage you have quoted.

[Resurrexi]

The passage implies that there are some people who die in original sin without mortal sin.

Only a person not having use of reason can die in original sin without mortal sin since the invincibly ignorant who are saved by seeking the truth and doing God's will receive a baptism of desire:

"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity" ([i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], no. 1260).

[White Knight]

I'd like to believe even though human beings are given Free Will throughout life, we have to reach that point before we can even choose ourselves, weather or not we reject God, I think God in His Grace would show mercy to an infant "baptized or not" especially if that child dies, before having an "personal choice" to freely accept God or reject God, they haven't reached that point yet, their lives, parents have to make the decesion, aleast until they can make the choices themselves. The Church recongizes three forms of Baptism.


The Baptism of Water and Spirit "The Normal method."

The Baptism of Desire, the intention of being Baptized, but un able to accomplish it before death.

The Baptism of Blood, the very act of dying for the faith "usually Martyrdom" the sheeding of Your Blood giving Your all to God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Blessed Trinity, Accepted especially if the circumstances make it impossible for you to be baptized in Water or Spirit. The Theft of the right side of Jesus who died on his cross is a prime example, Luke Gospel gives us a glimpse of that.

[size=4][u][b]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b][/u][/size]


[b]1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.[59] He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.[60] Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.[61] The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."[62] Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.[/b]


[color="#FF0000"][b]1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"[63] allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. [/b][/color]

[Katholikos]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1935867' date='Jul 30 2009, 06:01 PM']But, to be completely honest... this is a time when the Mormon doctrine on the afterlife appeals a lot to me. They teach about a place that those who never heard the Gospel can go after death. Kind of like a spiritual prison or something. There they can be taught the Gospel and can choose to accept it. If they do, they go to the third & lowest level of Heaven. If they don't... well, it's off to Hell with 'em.

I mean, I find a lot wrong with that, but at the same time.... it does account for these types of cases.[/quote]

I posted a link to the Mormon theology of Heaven and Hell in the Debate forum.