Resurrexi Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 [quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1935848' date='Jul 30 2009, 04:23 PM']So, would it suffice to say that those of us who make it to heaven may not commune with those who are in limbo?[/quote] According to the common theological opinion, the blessed are free to go about in the world. I am not sure whether or not that would include limbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Here's my view on it... I know that baptism is required for salvation... but God is not restricted in His sacraments. Therefore He can work outside of them, if He so desires. I also know that God is a loving and merciful God. So I trust that He will be loving and merciful to these young children who never received baptism or had the opportunity for it. I tend to lean towards believing God will draw them into communion with Himself. But, to be completely honest... this is a time when the Mormon doctrine on the afterlife appeals a lot to me. They teach about a place that those who never heard the Gospel can go after death. Kind of like a spiritual prison or something. There they can be taught the Gospel and can choose to accept it. If they do, they go to the third & lowest level of Heaven. If they don't... well, it's off to Hell with 'em. I mean, I find a lot wrong with that, but at the same time.... it does account for these types of cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Kyrie eleison" Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 [quote]this is a time when the Mormon doctrine on the afterlife appeals a lot to me. They teach about a place that those who never heard the Gospel can go after death. Kind of like a spiritual prison or something. There they can be taught the Gospel and can choose to accept it. If they do, they go to the third & lowest level of Heaven. If they don't... well, it's off to Hell with 'em.[/quote]. This is very interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) I don't really think that opinion is too far off what Catholicism allows for. For those who have not had an opportunity to know Christ in this life, yet have done their best to follow God as they have been given the grace to know him, they may be saved. We again leave it to his judgement and mercy. Noone enters heaven without knowing Christ and certainly all are enlightened when they come to meet him at death so I think that assomplishes the same thing. God desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. It would seem then that he gives grace sufficient for all men to do so and he is quite clear in Luke 12 that he only holds men accountable for what each has been given. A stern reminder to those who have been given much, such as us Catholics, in Luke 12. "To the one who knew, he will be treated with the unbleievers. But to him who did not know, he will recieve a light beating.". Edited July 31, 2009 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1935844' date='Jul 30 2009, 05:15 PM']Far from being heretical, infant's limbo is the most popular theory amongst Catholic thinkers throughout the ages.[/quote] Recent popes, including B16, have lessened it's influence with good reason. One cannot be happy for all eternity outside the prescence of God. Now certainly the beautific vision is lessened considerably for those who have not gone through life's trials and certainly there is some negative impact of not receiving full baptism. God only knows what that it. It has been pretty much cleared up that limbo has never been doctrine, has no chance of being dogma and is simply a speculation like the rest of the opinions on the matter. We'll find out on the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) [quote name='thessalonian' post='1935931' date='Jul 30 2009, 07:55 PM']Recent popes, including B16, have lessened it's influence with good reason. One cannot be happy for all eternity outside the prescence of God. Now certainly the beautific vision is lessened considerably for those who have not gone through life's trials and certainly there is some negative impact of not receiving full baptism. God only knows what that it. It has been pretty much cleared up that limbo has never been doctrine, has no chance of being dogma and is simply a speculation like the rest of the opinions on the matter. We'll find out on the other side.[/quote] There is stronger evidence that unbaptized infants go to limbo than that they go to heaven. Edited July 31, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) No, there is more speculation that they do. There is no offical doctrine, not teaching on the matter. Doctrine does not support one over the other. Just speculations. If there is such overwhelming evidence then quote Church teaching for me. The Catechism, decrees of councils and popes.... Not individual opinions. I'm waiting..... Again, I am fine with it if you want to believe in limbo. I don't. Edited July 31, 2009 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1936722' date='Jul 31 2009, 01:30 PM']There is stronger evidence that unbaptized infants go to limbo than that they go to heaven.[/quote] I don't think there's actual [i]evidence[/i] either way. Speculation, yes. Opinions, yes. Teachings? Probably those too. Not evidence though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 [quote name='thessalonian' post='1936730' date='Jul 31 2009, 01:47 PM']No, there is more speculation that they do. There is no offical doctrine, not teaching on the matter. Doctrine does not support one over the other. Just speculations. If there is such overwhelming evidence then quote Church teaching for me. The Catechism, decrees of councils and popes.... Not individual opinions. I'm waiting..... Again, I am fine with it if you want to believe in limbo. I don't.[/quote] "It (The Roman Church) teaches. . . . . that the souls . . . . . of those who die in mortal sin, or with only original sin descend immediately into hell; however, to be punished with different penalties and in different places." (Pope John XII, [i]Nequaquam sine dolore[/i]: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 926) "Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds" (Ecumenical Council of Florence: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1306). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Kyrie eleison" Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1936766' date='Jul 31 2009, 03:25 PM']"It (The Roman Church) teaches. . . . . that the souls . . . . . of those who die in mortal sin, or with only original sin descend immediately into hell; however, to be punished with different penalties and in different places." (Pope John XII, [i]Nequaquam sine dolore[/i]: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 926) "Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds" (Ecumenical Council of Florence: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1306).[/quote] Well, if we are looking at this to give us more insight, then it suffices to say that these infants will suffer.......... this is why I bring up this subject. I have been pondering as to why the Catholic Church has not made a definiitve teaching on this, as there are abortions and miscarriges. We with our human understanding cannot fathom a just and loving God allowing the little ones, to suffer who have no knowledge. Edited July 31, 2009 by "Kyrie eleison" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 [quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936816' date='Jul 31 2009, 03:41 PM']Well, if we are looking at this to give us more insight, then it suffices to say that these infants will suffer.......... this is why I bring up this subject. I have been pondering as to why the Catholic Church has not made a definiitve teaching on this, as there are abortions and miscarriges. We with our human understanding cannot fathom a just and loving God allowing the little ones, who have no knowledge to suffer.[/quote] Obviously unbaptized infants would not have the beatific vision, but there is clearly no other punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Kyrie eleison" Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1936819' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:43 PM']Obviously unbaptized infants would not have the beatific vision, but there is clearly no other punishment.[/quote] I tend to believe that Jesus does not want anyone to hinder the the 'little ones' to come to him that they may in some way or form experience the beatific vision, for it is not of their own fault they were not baptized. It leads me to wonder.....should we pray for these innocent souls so they may freed of whatever punishment if any is brought upon them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) [quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936831' date='Jul 31 2009, 03:51 PM']I tend to believe that Jesus does not want anyone to hinder the the 'little ones' to come to him that they may in some way or form experience the beatific vision, for it is not of their own fault they were not baptized. It leads me to wonder.....should we pray for these innocent souls so they may freed of whatever punishment if any is brought upon them.[/quote] If unbaptized infants do indeed go to limbo, it isn't possible that they would somehow end up in heaven. They would be in limbo in eternity. As I have stated, however, that would not be so bad. Infants' limbo, in the general opinion of theologians, is a natural paradise. It would be like being in the Garden of Eden. Note well, though, the Catechism does state that we can pray for those unbaptized infants who die: "With respect to children who have died without Baptism, the liturgy of the Church invites us to trust in God's mercy and to pray for their salvation." ([i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], no. 1283) Edited July 31, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1936819' date='Jul 31 2009, 05:43 PM']Obviously unbaptized infants would not have the beatific vision, but there is clearly no other punishment.[/quote] Doesn't seem that obvious to me, nor to the rest of the Church, as there hasn't been any doctrine declared on the issue.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Kyrie eleison" Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1936840' date='Jul 31 2009, 03:57 PM']Doesn't seem that obvious to me, nor to the rest of the Church, as there hasn't been any doctrine declared on the issue.... [/quote] Again, I know that it is not in our time but God's time that the answer shall be revealed, but, my question is why is it taking so long. When I was just a going through the motions Catholic, my mom who is devout, would always bug me as to when I was going to get my children baptized. She always wanted me to get them baptized as soon as I could after they were born. I know that one of the Church fathers stated not to even wait 8 days as done by the Jews in circumsicion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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