"Kyrie eleison" Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I know there is a not a definitive teaching on this subject, but if you could please give your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Having suffered miscarriages, I have a vested interest in the subject. When an infant is baptized, their parents and godparents are the ones desiring the sacrament for the infant. I have the belief that baptism of desire applies to our deceased children because we certainly desired for their baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 [quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1935542' date='Jul 30 2009, 10:04 AM']I know there is a not a definitive teaching on this subject, but if you could please give your opinion.[/quote] I think that unbaptized infants go to infant's limbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 they are either 'judged' by the standard they would have lived, or they go to a place, or something to that effect, where they can fulfill the standard themself. you might call that a limbo of sorts. i wouldn' say they go to heaven, necessarily. just cause they were before reason, and died, doesn't seem like God would let them into heaven. i mean, if heaven were simply a place you get get into on technicalities or random whims of God, as mainstream chrsitianity essentially thinks it to be-- then sure, anything's possible. just seems like there's be another alternative mroe in conformity to the way things are meant to be for everyone, as far as i can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 “Babies dead without baptism go to Limbo, where they do not enjoy God, but neither do they suffer, because, having original sin alone, they do not deserve paradise, but neither do they merit hell or purgatory.” ~1905 Catechism of the Catholic Church just thought i'd throw some good old controversy in here. couldn't resist. this is the debate board- just adding sizzle to the flames. feel free to ignore it, or have the original poster disclaim talking about it, if 'ideas' more gnerally are sought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Why would Got send babies that he knows are going to be aborted (just because we have free will doesn't mean he doesn't know what we are going to do with that free will) away from him into Limbo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) [quote name='CatherineM' post='1935788' date='Jul 30 2009, 03:19 PM']Why would Got send babies that he knows are going to be aborted (just because we have free will doesn't mean he doesn't know what we are going to do with that free will) away from him into Limbo?[/quote] Sanctifying grace is necessary to enter heaven. Edited July 30, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1935790' date='Jul 30 2009, 03:19 PM']Sanctifying grace is necessary to enter heaven.[/quote] And I guess you are the ultimate arbiter of who is to receive that sanctifying grace, and who doesn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) [quote name='CatherineM' post='1935796' date='Jul 30 2009, 03:22 PM']And I guess you are the ultimate arbiter of who is to receive that sanctifying grace, and who doesn't?[/quote] "f anyone shall say that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema" (The Ecumenical Council of Trent: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1618) God has revealed that baptism is necessary for salvation for all men. The Church has not taught that there exists a way other than baptism of [i]water[/i] for the unbaptized to be justified besides baptism of [i]blood[/i] and baptism of [i]desire[/i]. Although baptism of [i]blood[/i] can indeed be received by Christian martyrs without the use of reason, the Church has not taught that baptism of [i]desire[/i] can be received by those without the use of reason. Thus, following the opinion that numerous Saints and Doctors of the Church have held throughout the ages, I feel that unbaptized infants go to limbo, a place of natural happiness. Edited July 30, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 well, i mean, if a catholic were to believe that baptism provided sanctifying grace-- that's in a sense a technicality, like i had mentioned. i'd see no reason baptism by desire couldn't provide it. in fact, if the initial premise were held by me, i'd prob believe in baptism for desire by em. seems more consistent with itself, and a loving God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1935824' date='Jul 30 2009, 04:56 PM']well, i mean, if a catholic were to believe that baptism provided sanctifying grace-- that's in a sense a technicality, like i had mentioned. i'd see no reason baptism by desire couldn't provide it. in fact, if the initial premise were held by me, i'd prob believe in baptism for desire by em. seems more consistent with itself, and a loving God.[/quote] I don't know how an unborn baby could have the cognitive powers to qualify for Baptism by Desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 good call. if not by desire then, soemthing to that effect. baptism by God's mercy, much like baptism supposedly accomplishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 There are several theories. 1) God automatically takes care of the original sin and it goes to heaven. I lean toward this because the Church recognizes the feast day of the feast of the Holy Innocents in December when the babies were killed by Herod in attempt to kill Christ. 2) It may depend on the faith of the parents. The question of what happens to Moselm or Hindu for instance. 3) He may illuminate their minds and give them the opportunity to choose. 4) they may go to hell. (this I highly doudt but it would not be heretical I don't think). 5) Limbo is neither heretical. Those are the options I know of and as I said I lean toward #1. Whatever the correct answer we can trust in God's mercy and justice and we know that when we meet him we will understand and so we place our trust in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 [quote name='thessalonian' post='1935839' date='Jul 30 2009, 04:10 PM']5) Limbo is neither heretical.[/quote] Far from being heretical, infant's limbo is the most popular theory amongst Catholic thinkers throughout the ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Kyrie eleison" Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1935802' date='Jul 30 2009, 03:30 PM']Thus, following the opinion that numerous Saints and Doctors of the Church have held throughout the ages, I feel that unbaptized infants go to limbo, a place of natural happiness.[/quote] So, would it suffice to say that those of us who make it to heaven may not commune with those who are in limbo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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