C.f.r.

[Lounge Daddy]

[popestpiusx]

I must have missed something. The fact that the Holy Father allows something (unthinkable ever before in Church History) does not mean I have to suddenly embrace what the Church has always forbidden. Does the assertion that rock bands in sanctuary are not conducive to sanctity make me schismatic?? You people ganging up on me here (which doesn’t bother me in the slightest) have yet to address the facts that I quoted earlier. I quoted St. Pius X. That wasn’t good enough for you. So I quoted Vatican II. Still not good enough. In fact, one person even openly disagreed with what was quoted (something that would have spawned a warning had I done it). The only thing that one can conclude is that you people have no real argument, but rather are guilty of what you have accused me of: measuring the rest of the world according to the standard of himself. You are like this stuff, ergo it is good. Who’s standard is that? Your own! I have not one time told you what my personal opinions are in this regard. I will if you want to know, but they are irrelevant to the argument. The Church has officially promulgated certain standards. These, and not one’s preferences or opinions, are the standard by which all (within the genus of what we are discussing) is to be judged. You disagree? Take it to the Church. She taught the stuff, not me. How schismatic of me to think such things.

And to you Mr. Sigga, your post does not even merit a response. However, a few things do need to be pointed out. You posted the following “but why in the H are you even a Roman Catholic? There are lots of little schismatic groups around that would love every little thing you have ever said on Pm. If one whole-heartedly believes the Pope is a nut and the Roman Catholic priesthood is a hoot, why lie to oneself and not just leave?”

What in the hell are you talking about? Show me where I said the Pope is a nut. Show me where I have stated that the Roman Catholic Priesthood is a hoot. I don’t even know what you mean by “hoot.” Why the hell am I Catholic? Because the Church is the Fullness of Truth. Because she has an unbroken line of teaching 2000 years old. Because, unlike every religion and sect in the world apart from the Catholic Church, her teachings are not subject to personal preferences or opinions. Her truth is absolute and unchanging. Because she was instituted by Christ and because outside of her there is no salvation. Pretty schismatic, huh?

You go on to say: “I love the Pope and the priesthood and V2 so naturally I would identify as a Roman Catholic. This isn't 1950 or 1850 and the Church is ALIVE in Christ TODAY in 2004 preaching to the masses and evangelizing sinners.”

Can you explain how this in some way is contrary to anything I have said? Have I said that I do not love the Pope the priesthood or Vatican II? Pointing out issues where they may be legitimately pointed out does not indicate a lack of love. In fact, it indicates a more complete love. If I though my father was doing something that was dangerous to him or his soul and I said nothing could I actually claim to love him? No, of course not. Secondly, I am well aware of what year it is and that the Church is Alive etc. That is the whole point of my being Catholic and defending the Church. If she was dead, the whole thing would have been a lie and there would be nothing to defend. Also, for the record, I am the one who quoted from the Vatican II document on the liturgy. Not you. It seems to have been conveniently ignored. I am being accused of hating Vatican II, yet I am the one using the Council documents to bolster my argument. Am I the only one that sees the irony there?

You state further: “If you want to go to the indult Latin Mass, fine then just go, but the Council is over and done with - just say a "Glory Be" and get over it.”

Yes, you are right, the Council is over. I will certainly say a Glory Be for that. Imagine the costs of running a council for forty years. No, it is definitely better for the Church that they ended it in 1965. And I will go to the indult Latin Mass, happily, as is my right according to the Holy Father.

And for all you who jumped on the bandwagon, well... God Bless You All!!

[PedroX]

[Theologian in Training]

I haven't the time nor desire to argue with the rest of you here, but your discontent with popestpiusx is quite evident. Perhaps I have not read enough of his posts to form a similar opinion, but I actually think you are too dismissive of him. Granted, you may not see eye to eye on certain issues, but not a single one of you addressed any of his concerns, rather, you started an argument with him and merely reaffirmed your own thoughts on the issue.

You espouse charity, how important it is to be a saint (it is in our mission statement) and yet you come across a guy who is a little more polemic, maybe even as much as Ironmonk and immediately decide that his thoughts on the issue are not worthy of a discussion.

I don't know, maybe I am missing something, and maybe I will be seen as sympathetic towards him, but I don't understand what the problem is. Not all Catholics are completely sold on drums in the sactuary, nor are they all advocates of a more charismatic type of Mass. Yeah, it may help draw the youth, and we should be thankful for that, but just because someone does not agree with what sometimes appears to be rock and roll music at the Mass does not mean we decide he should leave the Catholic faith and hates the Pope. Besides, just because the Pope allows it does not mean it is an infallible statement as to how all liturgies should be done.

Like I said, I may be missing something, but this is merely my own .02

God Bless

[cmotherofpirl]

pspx I apologize for the smiley. I just get tired of trad type people, and I thought the censor crack was funny. I never quite thought of a censor that way before.

[popestpiusx]

I took no offence, mother. I am just tired of there being an inconsistent standard of reproof. It's open season on traditionalists on this phorum. Had I said of someone else, especially a so-called "Church Scholar", what they said of me I would have received a nasty e-mail from one of the moderators and probably had my account suspended. I'm not asking for anyone to get in "trouble" over this. I just want consistency. I despise double standards and logical inconsistencies with a passion that burns hotter than a thousand suns. Be that as it may, I was not offended by anything said of me. No hard feelings and no apology necessary.

In Christo et Maria,
PSPX

[popestpiusx]

By the way, thank you Theologian, for coming to my defence (even though you don't necessarily agree with me). God Bless.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Apr 3 2004, 06:27 PM'] By the way, thank you Theologian, for coming to my defence (even though you don't necessarily agree with me). God Bless. [/quote]
Hmmm...never said that. I haven't read enough of your posts to form an opinion, one way or the other. Regardless, you are welcome.

God Bless

[friarMatt]

PSPX, If I came off hard on you or uncharitable, "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa." I hope that the Latin apology counts even more

Know of my prayers

in Christ and Mary,
fr. Matt

[popestpiusx]

Please, no apologies. I took no offence.

Theologian, I was not saying that you DO NOT agree with me but that you don't NECESSARILY. In other words, it is not your agreement with my argument that caused you to defend me. Thank You again.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Apr 3 2004, 08:15 PM'] Theologian, I was not saying that you DO NOT agree with me but that you don't NECESSARILY. In other words, it is not your agreement with my argument that caused you to defend me. Thank You again. [/quote]
No Problem...

God Bless

[RemnantRules]

PSPX. Well first i'll say something really quick then i'll get to what the REAL topic was suppose to be about. PSPX, I know how you feel, i've been there, but sometimes it's better to just listen to what people have to say and take it all in respectfully then point out your view. You don't have to agree with any others but at least listen and respect b/c Jesus said "I came so that you may have life and have it to the full."Jn 10:10


OK so the orignal topic the Order itself is freakin awesome! To help the hopeless and homeless and serving God however they can is an awe inspiring thing. I also went to New York for the Ordination with Zach and it was the best things that i have ever done. Also, meeting the brothers and get to know them is one of the greatest things in my life. Anyways i'm tired so i'm going to bed. Night yall

God Bless
Jason Gregory
RemnantRoadie

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='RemnantRules' date='Apr 4 2004, 12:25 AM'] OK so the orignal topic the Order itself is freakin awesome! To help the hopeless and homeless and serving God however they can is an awe inspiring thing. I also went to New York for the Ordination with Zach and it was the best things that i have ever done. Also, meeting the brothers and get to know them is one of the greatest things in my life. Anyways i'm tired so i'm going to bed. Night yall

God Bless
Jason Gregory
RemnantRoadie [/quote]
[font="Courier"]true that and amen[/font]

[popestpiusx]

This is from an interesting article by Fr. Basil Noritz. The entire article can be found here: [url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Homiletic/2002-04/nortz.html"]http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Ho...2-04/nortz.html[/url]


The degree to which each individual is affected by music will certainly vary due to temperament and character. Nevertheless, just as we can indicate general norms of virtuous behavior based upon the proper ordering of the passions to right reason, so too we can indicate general norms for good music based upon whether the passions imitated are according to right reason or not. In a word, good music will stimulate the emotions in such a way that these faculties of the soul, under the guidance of reason, are made to more effectively pursue the good of the individual and his neighbor. Bad music tends to absolutize the passions, making their pleasure or hate a good in itself, such that right reason more and more loses dominion with the result that the individual falls victim to the passions. Hence, it is not perchance that disordered music naturally advocates libertinism, rebellion and chaos.

To give a quick application of these principles, let us take the prevalent genre of music enjoyed by many of today’s youth: rock music. One music historian who has covered the rock scene for national publications since 1967 described rock music in a very honest way. From its very inception, he writes, it has been “all about disorder, aggression, and sex: a fantasy of human nature, running wild to a savage beat.”9 What Alan Freed originally named “Rock and Roll” in 1955 has since spawned a large progeny such as: Heavy Metal, Rap, Punk, Alternative, Grunge, etc. The common element in most, if not all, is the throbbing heavy pulsating beat, and syncopated rhythm which are amplified through the electrification of instruments, especially the guitar. The lyrics which accompany much of this secular music are similarly often morally objectionable. But the fact of the matter is such lyrics fit the music perfectly. Very often the music itself is obscene even without the lyrics. The emotions evoked by such music can hardly be considered virtuous much less Christian. The passions of sensuality, rebellion, pride, power, and irreverence are commonly evoked by the rhythms characteristic of these types of music.

Apart from the emotional effects that the progeny of rock music has on man, there are also verifiable physiological effects, such as the increase of adrenaline in the blood stream which makes the music physically addictive.10 Also it causes the out-pouring of sexual hormones when the volume of the music is high which is practically the norm, especially in concerts and places for dancing.11 These physical repercussions also serve as indicators of the effect this music can have on the moral life. Since the moral virtues of temperance and fortitude do not reside in man’s purely spiritual faculties of intellect and will, but in the passions of his soul they are more easily disturbed by such bodily changes.

By contrast, let us now consider the musical antithesis of rock music: plain chant. Here we note that the emotions are being stimulated in a very different way, not in a riot of passion, but peacefully in a way that serves reason and respects the integrity of the individual. Plain chant has been preferred for sacred worship in the Church, and even before Christ in the Jewish praying of the psalms. Such is the case not simply because it so perfectly serves to convey the meaning of the text; but because plain chant itself conveys a sense of peace, reverence, purity, and humility.

The point is not that plain chant is the only good music, nor that all good music is like chant, except in that all good music stimulates the emotions in a way consonant with reason.

[PaxVobis]

If it were up to me ( and of course it isn't, and I'm sure for a good reason ) I would have everyone singing Polyphony!! Josquin Desprez, Thomas Tallis, Willim Byrd, Gregorio Allegri, Palestrina!!! If you haven't experienced the music of these composers your missin out!!! Tallis' Spem in Alium and Allegri's Miserere will rock your world!

Pax,
Tony