Why Does God Hide Himself?

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='mortify' post='1934449' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:24 AM']How does hiding promote sincere worship/love?[/quote]

Who said He was hiding in the first place?

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='mortify' post='1933518' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:48 PM']Some sort of response. There was a pillar of fire that led the Israelites away from Egypt, why are these miracles so rare nowadays? It seems we must look to the past for such extraordinary events.[/quote]

Miracles happen every day to each and everyone of us. Are our eyes open to seeing the miracle?

Ever see a newborn? How did two cells produce a complicated body?

Did a parking space ever open just when you needed it? Laugh if you must, but God cares about even the smallest of our problems. I agree, we don't always get "what we want when we want it", but that doesn't mean God isn't there. Maybe it means we aren't.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1933782' date='Jul 28 2009, 09:08 AM']Back then, there was a simpler faith too.

In the 8th Century, in tiny village in Italy called Lanciano, a priest starts to have doubts of the Real Presence, during the Consecration the bread and wine physically turned into body and blood, countless scientists have examined it and determined it is flesh from a heart and blood normal blood. If you go to Italy you can see this beautiful miracle.

[url="http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html"]http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html[/url]

Miracles still do happen, but not as frequently as they once had[/quote]
I've heard about this. I also heard a tale of Pope St. Gregory the Great doing a miracle consecration when there was a non-believer attending the Mass. Awesome stuff.

Since the miracle has been confirmed, would it then be possible to get our Lord's DNA if the flesh or blood was still in good condition? I'm not trying to be disrespectful but it would be most interesting to know.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1934544' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:18 AM']Miracles happen every day to each and everyone of us. Are our eyes open to seeing the miracle?

Ever see a newborn? How did two cells produce a complicated body?

Did a parking space ever open just when you needed it? Laugh if you must, but God cares about even the smallest of our problems. I agree, we don't always get "what we want when we want it", but that doesn't mean God isn't there. Maybe it means we aren't.[/quote]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1934151' date='Jul 28 2009, 06:25 PM']If a non-believer witnessed an apparition or miracle of some sort, would they necessarily become a believer? [/quote]

"If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead." -Luke 16:31

[quote name='mortify' post='1934449' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:24 AM']How does hiding promote sincere worship/love?[/quote]

Well, God isn't hiding so much as we are hiding from him. Remember it was Adam and Eve who hid from God. We know we are not holy. God knows we cannot be in His Presence. It's both mercy and justice that we are separated from God in this life. The Good News is this life will end.

But what I was trying to get earlier is that we choose in this life whether to believe in God, love Him, and obey Him. Either way, we can still enjoy many blessings. We are not compelled by God either way, though He does pursue us and invite us to know Him. However, after we die, our opportunity and freedom to choose is also dead: God will be revealed and that will be either Heaven or Hell, depending on our relationship with God.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1934137' date='Jul 28 2009, 09:00 PM']God doesnt want to "rule" over the world and force people to believe. This is why he doesnt crack open the sky and stand over us in an undeniable display of his existence and power. He wants an intimate relationship with each of us. We are not humans and God. We are each and everyone one of us, on a personal level, and God. His desire for us is not merely to believe in him, but to love him as he loves us. The Eucharist is the ultimate source of this love for us while we are on this earth because its him, offering everything he is and has, to us, in love.[/quote]

You say God doesn't want to rule over us, but why then does he dictate the rules for us? If all he wants is that we love him, then why does he threaten us with his eternal hate if we fail to do so? If he's not willing to display his existence to us, then why would he expect us to believe? If he could save millions of people from eternal suffering simply by showing himself, then what other conclusion can we make from it other than that he doesn't care? And if God doesn't care about our suffering, then how could we love him? If God truly loves us, then why is he only showing us cold indifference?

[Hassan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1934859' date='Jul 29 2009, 02:20 PM']"If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead." -Luke 16:31[/quote]

What about Thomas?



[quote]Well, God isn't hiding so much as we are hiding from him. Remember it was Adam and Eve who hid from God. We know we are not holy. God knows we cannot be in His Presence. It's both mercy and justice that we are separated from God in this life. The Good News is this life will end.[/quote]

I thought God visited Abraham? Furthermore individuals were able to remain in Christ's presence.

[quote]But what I was trying to get earlier is that we choose in this life whether to believe in God, love Him, and obey Him. Either way, we can still enjoy many blessings. We are not compelled by God either way, though He does pursue us and invite us to know Him. However, after we die, our opportunity and freedom to choose is also dead: God will be revealed and that will be either Heaven or Hell, depending on our relationship with God.[/quote]

That's a pretty unjust set up.

[Hassan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1934859' date='Jul 29 2009, 02:20 PM']"If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead." -Luke 16:31[/quote]

What about Thomas?



[quote]Well, God isn't hiding so much as we are hiding from him. Remember it was Adam and Eve who hid from God. We know we are not holy. God knows we cannot be in His Presence. It's both mercy and justice that we are separated from God in this life. The Good News is this life will end.[/quote]

I thought God visited Abraham? Furthermore individuals were able to remain in Christ's presence.

[quote]But what I was trying to get earlier is that we choose in this life whether to believe in God, love Him, and obey Him. Either way, we can still enjoy many blessings. We are not compelled by God either way, though He does pursue us and invite us to know Him. However, after we die, our opportunity and freedom to choose is also dead: God will be revealed and that will be either Heaven or Hell, depending on our relationship with God.[/quote]

That's a pretty unjust set up.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1934569' date='Jul 29 2009, 02:44 AM']I've heard about this. I also heard a tale of Pope St. Gregory the Great doing a miracle consecration when there was a non-believer attending the Mass. Awesome stuff.

Since the miracle has been confirmed, would it then be possible to get our Lord's DNA if the flesh or blood was still in good condition? I'm not trying to be disrespectful but it would be most interesting to know.[/quote]

if you could get the DNA from there, one would think you could also get it from another miracles. im sure you see where this is going. then you could next to definitely prove either that it was a miracle --or a stealthy done hoax alterantive, depending on how far reasonably fetched this could be, if no doubt no stealth, then miracle.
andor prove one of an assortment of claimed miracles are true or not.
you could also prove jesus' lineage. who would be related to him etc. political implications = huge.
you could prove whether he had a real father or not, maybe. rubbing against the virgin birth, but. i tend to believe virgin birth, but i have nothing definitive to bind me to that belief.
the implications don't stop there, im sure

i think the DNA is too damaged in most things to tell. eg, the shroud of turin has enough to tell AB etc, but not sure if DNA. there's a book on this, but didn't even mention the simple point.
they say the miracle at lanciano still bleeds from time to time. if that's true, it could be tested. if it's true, might not even be, but. they do say there's studies on it, i guess. (one of many reasons i'm drawn to the catholic and/or orthodox church, for anyone wonderin

Edited July 30, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Hassan]

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1934137' date='Jul 28 2009, 05:00 PM']God doesnt want to "rule" over the world and force people to believe.[/quote]

He seems to rule over heaven.

Don't the saved spend their time praising God in The Book of Revelation?

[Semalsia]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1933004' date='Jul 27 2009, 01:59 PM']To the original question, the heart of the matter is love. God wants our sacrifice, our obedience, and our prayers, but he wants them to be expressions of love. If we regard God as simply a fact, our hearts remain cold and uninspired; but when we encouter him as a communion of three divine persons, we can know God personally and truly love him. If God reveals himself to all of mankind, he has forfeited our opportunity to love him out of heartfelt desire. Instead, we may just obey him because he's God and it's not like there's another God out there. That's not a healthy and fulfilling relationship.[/quote]

So your saying that God decided it was better for the majority of people to end up in Hell so that a few could feel inspired? Why would a relationship with someone be more important than the eternal fate of all human beings? This is where all that God is love stuff falls apart. I just don't understand how you can say all these things fully knowing what the Church also teaches about Heaven and Hell.

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1935166' date='Jul 29 2009, 07:15 PM']So your saying that God decided it was better for the majority of people to end up in Hell so that a few could feel inspired? Why would a relationship with someone be more important than the eternal fate of all human beings? This is where all that God is love stuff falls apart. I just don't understand how you can say all these things fully knowing what the Church also teaches about Heaven and Hell.[/quote]

If someone is in Hell it is because they rejected love. It's not that a relationship is more important than the eternal fate of anyone... The eternal fate of all human beings is ABOUT a relationship with someone. If I don't love God, I am not going to want to be in Heaven. It's not that He doesn't want them to be in Heaven its that he allows each person to choose what he/she wants.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='zunshynn' post='1935274' date='Jul 30 2009, 03:30 AM']If someone is in Hell it is because they rejected love. It's not that a relationship is more important than the eternal fate of anyone... The eternal fate of all human beings is ABOUT a relationship with someone. If I don't love God, I am not going to want to be in Heaven. It's not that He doesn't want them to be in Heaven its that he allows each person to choose what he/she wants.[/quote]

How can you say that any sane person would want to go to Hell? Even if you don't love God, Heaven has got to be infinitely better than eternal suffering in Hell.

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1935476' date='Jul 30 2009, 05:34 AM']How can you say that any sane person would want to go to Hell? Even if you don't love God, Heaven has got to be infinitely better than eternal suffering in Hell.[/quote]

The chief suffering in Hell is not being with God.

I know a few people who seem perfectly sane to me that have told me point blank that they want to go to Hell...

Now, I don't think they really understand what the ultimate loss of God would mean... nor, honestly, do I, really. But they are making decisions to make it perfectly clear to anyone that they don't want to love God. Now I'm not judging their souls, I'm just saying this is the message they're sending, and seem to want to send.

Honestly, the way they are now... I really think they would be miserable in Heaven... I hope that someday will change... I think it can, if they start to be open to it... But God is not going to force someone to be with Him, to love Him, if they don't want to.

There was a point in my own life where I really honestly can say I hated God. I would not have been happy in heaven if I had died with the sentiments towards God that I had then. Not that you can be 'happy' in hell... but that was what I was choosing at the time.

That's why he gives us free will. He doesn't want to be loved by robots that didn't freely choose to love, because that isn't genuine love, and free will was a gift he gave to his creation, and he wants them to be able to use it.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1935156' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:00 PM']What about Thomas?[/quote]

"Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." -John 20:29

Yes, if miracles were of no value at all, they wouldn't happen. God provides miracles to help our faith and to touch us, assuming we are open to believing them. Faith draws us to genuine conversion. Otherwise, we can know God exists in our minds, but continue to reject Him in our hearts.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1935156' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:00 PM']I thought God visited Abraham? Furthermore individuals were able to remain in Christ's presence.[/quote]

Yes, but God still needed to conceal his Presence as an act of mercy on Abraham, Moses, Jacob, and others He visited. Even in human flesh, his glory remain veiled, except at the Transfiguration and that was too much even for his three closest followers to handle.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1935156' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:00 PM']That's a pretty unjust set up.[/quote]

How so? Because God doesn't force his Presence upon us?