Why Does God Hide Himself?

[reyb]

Please, let us go back to our topic.

Mortify started this topic with a title and a question, Why Does God hide Himself? (in bread and wine). Actually, he is talking about the Eucharist - The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ based on the Teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

And Katholikos posted

For those who may be reading this thread but do not know, the Church teaches that the substance of the bread and wine are changed into the substance of the flesh and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Can we discuss this ‘Eucharist’? Is this ‘transubtantiation for real? Or it is just another lie hidden in mystery.

Edited October 18, 2009 by reyb

[mortify]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 October 2009 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1255882420' post='1987317']
Mortify started this topic with a title and a question, Why Does God hide Himself? (in bread and wine). Actually, he is talking about the Eucharist - The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ based on the Teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.
[/quote]

I was taking in general and using the sacramental veil as an example. Please note since making this thread I have gained a greater understanding of the question and answer. See my post #106 on this thread:

[quote]Since I've started this thread I've gotten a better understanding of the question and the answer to it. It deals with the one thing God reveres about man, the free will He has given him. God may will a man into suffering, but He will never will a man to believe, man must use his free will to make an act of faith. God will give us clues to motivate us to believe, but never knowledge, that is reserved for the Just in Heaven. So each person must make an initial step into the unknown, and there is no way around this. The problem is that it's not simply an intellectual question, whether a person can reasonably prove the existence of God or not. I once talked to a girl who told me she couldn't believe even though she wanted to, when we got to the core of the issue, it turned out the thought of changing her lifestyle seemed impossible, and the thought of being responsible for her actions too heavy. On the flipside I knew a Catholic doubting his faith, ultimately it turned out he was dispairing over vices he couldn't break free from. So there is really more to making an act of Faith than presenting reasonable arguments for theism or atheism. The will must choose whether God is worthy to be sought after, and this choice ultimately determines the fate of the soul. I am making the choice to believe, and that is beginning to cost me, but God willing I will make it to heaven, and I hope all you who read this pray that I get there, as I will certainly pray for you.[/quote]

Edited October 18, 2009 by mortify

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' date='19 October 2009 - 03:13 AM' timestamp='1255882420' post='1987317']


Can we discuss this 'Eucharist'? Is this 'transubtantiation for real? Or it is just another lie hidden in mystery.
[/quote]
It certainly is a mystery! I often feel the presence before the Eucharist although for me starting with the 'peace be with you ' the Eucharist is the climax of the Mass. As a 'special Minister' I feel Christ's presence within myself as if I am just the shell and it is he who is giving the communion using my body. When a small child comes for a blessing, I like to squat down so I can look into the eyes of the child, for there I see God. The act of blessing a child is often more powerful (for me) than giving someone the host.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='18 October 2009 - 04:27 PM' timestamp='1255901267' post='1987460']
It certainly is a mystery! I often feel the presence before the Eucharist although for me starting with the 'peace be with you ' the Eucharist is the climax of the Mass. As a 'special Minister' I feel Christ's presence within myself as if I am just the shell and it is he who is giving the communion using my body. When a small child comes for a blessing, I like to squat down so I can look into the eyes of the child, for there I see God. The act of blessing a child is often more powerful (for me) than giving someone the host.
[/quote]

But from whom, this idea of 'transubtantiation' came from?

[reyb]

[quote name='mortify' date='06 October 2009 - 10:35 PM' timestamp='1254886558' post='1979639']
Since I've started this thread I've gotten a better understanding of the question and the answer to it. It deals with the one thing God reveres about man, the free will He has given him. God may will a man into suffering, but He will never will a man to believe, man must use his free will to make an act of faith. God will give us clues to motivate us to believe, but never knowledge, that is reserved for the Just in Heaven. So each person must make an initial step into the unknown, and there is no way around this. The problem is that it's not simply an intellectual question, whether a person can reasonably prove the existence of God or not. I once talked to a girl who told me she couldn't believe even though she wanted to, when we got to the core of the issue, it turned out the thought of changing her lifestyle seemed impossible, and the thought of being responsible for her actions too heavy. On the flipside I knew a Catholic doubting his faith, ultimately it turned out he was dispairing over vices he couldn't break free from. So there is really more to making an act of Faith than presenting reasonable arguments for theism or atheism. The will must choose whether God is worthy to be sought after, and this choice ultimately determines the fate of the soul. I am making the choice to believe, and that is beginning to cost me, but God willing I will make it to heaven, and I hope all you who read this pray that I get there, as I will certainly pray for you.
[/quote]

The more we need to talk about this because it leads to the question of God’s becoming unrighteous.

If God did not really want us, the entire generation of humanity to know Him and just like what you are saying, It is an act of God’s revere to his creation. Why then God reveal himself to Apostle Paul and other witnesses?

You even supported this idea that ‘ ….God will give us clues to motivate us to believe but never knowledge…’ – meaning, just to have the ‘will’ to believe in God although God is still in mystery. If God really ‘respect’ us in that way, do you mean, God respect you but not his chosen people of God? (Because He reveals himself).

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' date='19 October 2009 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1255917664' post='1987622']
But from whom, this idea of 'transubtantiation' came from?
[/quote]
Does the [u]physica[/u]l body and blood have importance? As the 12 ate and drank did Christ's body diminish? Did he become anaemic? The body of Christ also refers to 'The Church' or his people. A body of people! 'The cup' is a term representing life or a part of life. In this case Jesus sacrifice of his life for which his blood was shed. The crucifixion has been the corner stone of Christianity. God's love for his creation is such that he was willing to sacrifice his son to prove it. In seeing this and believing, millions of souls have been saved! The definition of 'substance' is what something is made from but it can also mean the significant or most important existence of something. In Transubstantiation insignificant bread and wine become something of extreme significance. As I understand it the jury is still out on transubstantiation or consubstantiation. The Catholic Church is fairly rigid about the former.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Mark of the Cross

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='19 October 2009 - 02:07 AM' timestamp='1255936053' post='1987759']
Does the [u]physica[/u]l body and blood have importance? As the 12 ate and drank did Christ's body diminish? Did he become anaemic? The body of Christ also refers to 'The Church' or his people. A body of people! 'The cup' is a term representing life or a part of life. In this case Jesus sacrifice of his life for which his blood was shed. The crucifixion has been the corner stone of Christianity. God's love for his creation is such that he was willing to sacrifice his son to prove it. In seeing this and believing, millions of souls have been saved! The definition of 'substance' is what something is made from but it can also mean the significant or most important existence of something. In Transubstantiation insignificant bread and wine become something of extreme significance. As I understand it the jury is still out on transubstantiation or consubstantiation. The Catholic Church is fairly rigid about the former.
[/quote]
-----------------------
The question is, - Is' transubtantiation' are reality of not?

[reyb]

[quote name='reyb' date='19 October 2009 - 05:26 AM' timestamp='1255948012' post='1987772']
-----------------------
The question is, - Is' transubtantiation' are reality of not?
[/quote]
Correction:

Is transubtantiation a reality?

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 October 2009 - 05:46 AM' timestamp='1255866415' post='1987263']
In your above post, it seems you are saying that to obey the commandment of God is a matter of choice on our part. Thus, I asked. Do you really think that we can fulfill the commandment of God by our own?
[/quote]

umm, yeah i do. in this case God has made the rule, and presented the reasons for it, and given me the choice whether or not to follow it. If i break it, it's not God's failing, neither is it His triumph if i keep to the law. His triumph is making me, and the laws of the world. what i do during my time on earth is mine.

[reyb]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='19 October 2009 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1255975269' post='1987898']
umm, yeah i do. in this case God has made the rule, and presented the reasons for it, and given me the choice whether or not to follow it. If i break it, it's not God's failing, neither is it His triumph if i keep to the law. His triumph is making me, and the laws of the world. what i do during my time on earth is mine.
[/quote]

In short, you know the commandment of God. Because you can only break a particular rule if you know that rule.

Edited October 19, 2009 by reyb

[Jesus_lol]

no? im really not sure what you are getting at here. im just trying to post my view of what "free will" is, and that is the freedom to believe in god or to not believe. as well as many other things, instead of just creating all of as as indentured servants here on earth, who have no choices.

[reyb]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='19 October 2009 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1255977532' post='1987907']
no? im really not sure what you are getting at here. im just trying to post my view of what "free will" is, and that is the freedom to believe in god or to not believe. as well as many other things, instead of just creating all of as as indentured servants here on earth, who have no choices.
[/quote]

Yes you have 'freedom' but even our freedom is not totality 'free' since everything in us are limited. There is no such thing as absolute freedom in a creation like us except when you see yourself as God. It is either, you are slave to sin meaning, you are under the power of deceiving spirit and therefore, you do not want to do the sin you are doing or you are a slave of Christ, meaning the goodness you are doing is not your own but it was done because of the Spirit Christ.

Nonetheless, in both ways you will feel ‘freedom’ since in one side, ‘You do not know what you are doing’ and on the other side, ‘You are willing to be a slave’. Now, you need to be more cautious if you think you are Christian because you must know how you become one. Othewise, you will see yourself a robber - stealing the crown of a true Christian and put it on your head.

I will say it again, our freedom, our free will, our most ardent desire, our faith and even our whole being is not enough to obey the commandment of God. Because only in Christ it can be done.

Now, do you think you can be a Christian just because you are willing?

Edited October 20, 2009 by reyb

[Jesus_lol]

hell yes i think that.

so apparently, i am a slave, a thief, a heretic and a non christian? your powers of extrapolation are pretty well developed, considering i only tried to explain Free will how I see it.

i am always being presented with choices, do the right thing or the wrong thing. with the forces of good(god) and evil(devil) trying to convince me one way or the other. I get to decide which one i listen to and obey.
i am a christian, back off.

[reyb]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='19 October 2009 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1256006372' post='1988103']
hell yes i think that.

so apparently, i am a slave, a thief, a heretic and a non christian? your powers of extrapolation are pretty well developed, considering i only tried to explain Free will how I see it.

i am always being presented with choices, do the right thing or the wrong thing. with the forces of good(god) and evil(devil) trying to convince me one way or the other. I get to decide which one i listen to and obey.
i am a christian, back off.
[/quote]
okay.Good. Carry on. Punk.