God's Existence

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1340740889' post='2449150']
People that claim to have proof of god, come from the ignorant position and appeal to a God of the Gaps.

It seems that the Christian god requires faith and belief otherwise us [b]Atheists wouldn't be doomed as the Christian bible says we are.[/b]
[/quote]
Just asking but, where does it say that? I heard a Cardinal recently to say that atheists have the possibility of salvation.

[timwho]

(ah forgive me if this was somewhere on the previous pages)

I believe in God as the reason for the universe because we have laws (I.e. physical laws, though I suppose the same could be said for C.S. Lewis's defence of theism through moral law). I believe in order, and rules that govern the universe's operation, and in rules for math and logic. I take by faith that these laws are true, and by faith still that the origin of these laws is God. I realize you can probably shoot this argument through, but it is why I believe that a God exists (I believe even dawkins would concede for the possibility of a deist god, though he may reject that premise).

[stevil]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1340751128' post='2449214']
Just asking but, where does it say that? I heard a Cardinal recently to say that atheists have the possibility of salvation.
[/quote]

[b]Mark 16:16 -[/b] He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned
[b]John 3:18 -[/b] He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
[b]John 3:36 -[/b] He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
[b]Hebrews 3:12 -[/b] Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God


It seems I have an evil heart and am condemned

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1340759866' post='2449284']
[b]Mark 16:16 -[/b] He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does [b]not believe[/b] will be condemned
[b]John 3:18 -[/b] He who believes in Him is not condemned; but [b]he who does not believe[/b] is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
[b]John 3:36 -[/b] He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who [b]does not believe[/b] the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
[b]Hebrews 3:12 -[/b] Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of [b]unbelief [/b]in departing from the living God


It seems I have an evil heart and am condemned
[/quote]
Yes that's good, you know them. The fact that you can quote these scriptures gives me some doubt as to your unbelief and faith is more of a heart thing and less of a mind thing. I can't make judgement on the criteria for salvation or go against Church teaching. But denying faith in your mind but knowing him in your heart by your deeds is at least a step in the right direction and provides a possibility of salvation. Or maybe he was just alluding to the thief on the cross where a change of heart at the last minute could bring about salvation.

[stevil]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1340766407' post='2449317']
Yes that's good, you know them. The fact that you can quote these scriptures gives me some doubt as to your unbelief
[/quote]
Google is my friend.
I don't know the bible, I don't believe in any gods or supernatural beings.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1340759866' post='2449284']
[b]Mark 16:16 -[/b] He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned
[b]John 3:18 -[/b] He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
[b]John 3:36 -[/b] He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
[b]Hebrews 3:12 -[/b] Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God


It seems I have an evil heart and am condemned
[/quote]
1. Hebrew 3:12 sounds like it's talking to someone whom once believed and now doesn't
2. What is condemned ? Is it doomed to hell fire and doom smells of pre destination which we don't believe in, and what is condemned to the wrath of GOD ? He whom partakes in the body and blood of christ incures GODS wrath also. So what is condemned? If it is GODS wrath my understanding is it is there to discipline that one may avoid eternal condemnation. And this is probably a temporal condemnation and not an eternal condemnation.

The LORD is my rod and my staff, my discipline and comforter when weary. And as far as i'm aware a good parent uses mercy and justice upon there children, justice being wrath, and i'm not talking about child abuse.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1340759866' post='2449284']
It seems I have an evil heart and am condemned
[/quote]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1340767292' post='2449326']
Google is my friend.
I don't know the bible, I don't believe in any gods or supernatural beings.
[/quote]
You claim in your first quote that the Bible condemns you, and in the second that you don't know the Bible. The Bible is a very complex literary device which theologians study for years. The Bible also teaches not to make judgements or presumptions. You cannot know that you are condemned by something which you do not know.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[stevil]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1340790188' post='2449372']
You claim in your first quote that the Bible condemns you, and in the second that you don't know the Bible. The Bible is a very complex literary device which theologians study for years. The Bible also teaches not to make judgements or presumptions. You cannot know that you are condemned by something which you do not know.
[/quote]
No, that's right.

I have perceptions, based on my life's experiences. Coming here and talking with you all, is interesting because sometimes you change my perception on things.

[sixpence]

Stevil is back! yey!!!

[Laudate_Dominum]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgEfYGzojcA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgEfYGzojcA[/url]

[LittleWaySoul]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1340766407' post='2449317']
But denying faith in your mind but knowing him in your heart by your deeds is at least a step in the right direction and provides a possibility of salvation.
[/quote]
[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1340824603' post='2449528']
No, that's right.

I have perceptions, based on my life's experiences. Coming here and talking with you all, is interesting because sometimes you change my perception on things.
[/quote]
That's one of the beautiful things about Catholicism-- we don't automatically assume that atheists are going to hell for their supposed "unbelief." I love what Mark said. It's what I often think about when musing about salvation vs. damnation. God alone can truly know someone's destiny. That's why I take issue with the whole Protestant idea of being "saved." It is arrogant of us as humans to assume that we know that our place in heaven is already reserved for us.

I like you, Stevil. I hope that someday we can both be in heaven together

[mortify]

There are plenty of rational arguments for God but they are not necessary. Humans by nature are inclined towards the Divine. We naturally ask metaphysical questions about purpose and meaning in life, and even the materially succesful are not at peace if they don't find this meaning. All this is from that gapping hole in the heart that only God can fill.

[stevil]

[quote name='LittleWaySoul' timestamp='1343328290' post='2459078']
I like you, Stevil. I hope that someday we can both be in heaven together
[/quote]
Thanks, I try not to be an idiot. I know some of the stuff I say on this forum may seem cold to some of you good folk. But I am being honest with myself.
In heaven..., I don't even know what people expect heaven to be like. If they have Godiva chocolate, Spanish hot chocolate, Italian gelato, Thai/Malaysian/Indian curry, spectacular places like Switzerland, France, South Island(NZ) then it would almost be worth dyeing for LOL

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1343814769' post='2461024']
Thanks, I try not to be an idiot. I know some of the stuff I say on this forum may seem cold to some of you good folk. But I am being honest with myself.
In heaven..., I don't even know what people expect heaven to be like.
[/quote]

Revelations 21: 1- 22

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.
2 And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me: Write, for these words are most faithful and true.
6 And he said to me: It is done. I am Alpha and Omega; the beginning and the end. To him that thirsteth, I will give of the fountain of the water of life, freely.
7 He that shall overcome shall possess these things, and I will be his God; and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
9 And there came one of the seven angels, who had the vials full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying: Come, and I will shew thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb.
10 And he took me up in spirit to a great and high mountain: and he shewed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God, and the light thereof was like to a precious stone, as to the jasper stone, even as crystal.
12 And it had a wall great and high, having twelve gates, and in the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.
13 On the east, three gates: and on the north, three gates: and on the south, three gates: and on the west, three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them, the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that spoke with me, had a measure of a reed of gold, to measure the city and the gates thereof, and the wall.
16 And the city lieth in a foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth: and he measured the city with the golden reed for twelve thousand furlongs, and the length and the height and the breadth thereof are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof an hundred and forty-four cubits, the measure of a man, which is of an angel.
18 And the building of the wall thereof was of jasper stone: but the city itself pure gold, like to clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper: the second, sapphire: the third, a chalcedony: the fourth, an emerald:
20 The fifth, sardonyx: the sixth, sardius: the seventh, chrysolite: the eighth, beryl: the ninth, a topaz: the tenth, a chrysoprasus: the eleventh, a jacinth: the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates are twelve pearls, one to each: and every several gate was of one several pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein. For the Lord God Almighty is the temple thereof, and the Lamb.
23 And the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, to shine in it. For the glory of God hath enlightened it, and the Lamb is the lamp thereof.
24 And the nations shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates thereof shall not be shut by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1343814769' post='2461024']

In heaven..., I don't even know what people expect heaven to be like.
[/quote]
I used to wonder that! Then when I was first given an SSRI antidepressant, suddenly for a few weeks I went into a state of extreme euphoria. I was intensly aware of the beauty of nature, the spring blossoms on bare trees, the birds whistling, the rain and lush green vegetation. Life/existence became incredibly enjoyable without even any entertainment. It was bliss to just sit in a chair and enjoy the ride. I had to actually cut back so I could fulfil my normal family duties. Then in East Timor at the end of a lesson, I would say 'Have a very nice day!' The sound of the innocent sweet voices saying 'Thank you!' gave me a feeling so strong that it felt like I was walking 6" above the ground. On one occasion two small girls would stare at me and when we made eye contact, their faces would break into a brilliant smile! Alone in my room when I remembered this I broke down and cried. Not because of sad, because of the joy because I reckon I saw Jesus face in them. JP2 said Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are states. If that's true, I've been in all three at some time in my life.