What Doctrine Or Moral Teaching....

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Oliver' post='1925539' date='Jul 20 2009, 04:38 AM']Recently I've always defended my point of views (against atheists) rather from a theist view than a christian or catholic view because their are few issues which I am unable to fully understand.

The issue of homosexuality for me is still confusing, I understand it is unnatural however I've always wondered why God has made them like that. It seems they have to carry a much bigger burden then some of us do. I did previously think that kissing was fine and only the sexual act was sinful however it seems I was wrong, kissing is sinful aswell and this really makes an uncomfortable subject to talk to with friends without looking like I hate homosexuals.

Contraception is another issue. I fully understand sex before marriage is wrong, for obvious reasons. However without contraception married sex seems very limited for a couple who don't want children or too many. And also some views are that sex should only be for creation purposes but im not 100% sure on the catholic view.

Another issue is what classify's someone going to hell/purgatory/heaven. If someone didn't follow the catholic faith, had pre-marriage sex lots, used contraception but was a good person and lived a good life would they go to hell or purgatory? Many seem to have different views on this.

I do need to read alot more however these are some of the issues I have.[/quote]

The Church teaches that purgatory is only temporary. It's not a "lesser hell" for non-Catholics who lead good lives. It's for people on their way to heaven.

I struggled with it a bit too. I couldn't imagine God being that picky and wanting us to be purified before we enter heaven.

[Sojourner]

By the time I converted I was comfortable with every Church moral position. I think I struggled a bit with understanding contraception, but actually it was a Protestant friend who convinced me of the Catholic Church's position on it. She was enthralled with the Theology of the Body and turned me on to it.

I grew up Protestant, and knew a lot of preacher's kids over the years. Because of that, I never had problems with priestly celibacy and actually think it's a better way of doing things. Pastor's families really suffer detriment because of Dad's split attentions, and on top of that they are always on display as "model kids" and "model wife" to their congregations. Work/family balance is always hard to achieve; in a pastoring situation I think it is almost impossible.

Anything else I struggled with, after I learned the Church's actual teachings, and became convinced of her authority to promulgate such teachings, I understood and was fine with.

[Didacus]

I struggle still with the doctrine of the 'Real Presence' in the Eucharist. Probably just the obstinate 'I have to completely understand everything' side of me talking but I simply can't grasp it intellectually, and thus without this element I have trouble believing and accepting.

Still working on it though, wish I had more time to read stuff.

[StColette]

[quote name='philothea' post='1925309' date='Jul 20 2009, 12:28 AM'][i]sigh[/i]

Contraception. Not that I specifically am at all interested in contraception (I'd be delighted to have a dozen kids, honestly) but certain contraceptive medications are the only cure to a debilitating medical condition I have. Not debilitating enough to kill me; just enough that, after puberty, I couldn't go to school, have a job, or... ironically... take care of children.

I'm trying to do the right thing, but maybe I'm just being stupid. I don't know.[/quote]


Not to get off topic, and I apologize Ora for taking over your thread for a moment, but I wanted to address this.

Philothea, if you haven't done so already, contact the Paul VI institute. They are an Catholic institute dedicated to women's reproductive health. They are doing tons of research and treatment, successful research and treatment, for things like endometriosis, menopause, etc. without using surgery or contraceptives. A friend of mine's father works for them. Anyway, just something to think about.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Oliver' post='1925539' date='Jul 20 2009, 06:38 AM']The issue of homosexuality for me is still confusing, I understand it is unnatural however I've always wondered why God has made them like that.[/quote]

How do you know homosexual attraction is created by God? Nobody is perfect, but our imperfections are not God's fault, nor are they reason to judge others.

[quote name='Oliver' post='1925539' date='Jul 20 2009, 06:38 AM']Contraception is another issue. I fully understand sex before marriage is wrong, for obvious reasons. However without contraception married sex seems very limited for a couple who don't want children or too many. And also some views are that sex should only be for creation purposes but im not 100% sure on the catholic view.[/quote]

The Catholic view is that sexual intimacy serves to unify husband and wife [i]and[/i] create new life. Not one or the other: both.

As for limiting... contraception is the tool that is limiting sexual intercourse. "The truth shall set you free."

[quote name='Oliver' post='1925539' date='Jul 20 2009, 06:38 AM']Another issue is what classify's someone going to hell/purgatory/heaven. If someone didn't follow the catholic faith, had pre-marriage sex lots, used contraception but was a good person and lived a good life would they go to hell or purgatory? Many seem to have different views on this.[/quote]

That's not the way salvation works. We are saved by grace alone: that's the most fundamental rule of following Christ. Muslims believe God weighs our good works against our sins and whether we go to heaven or hell depends on which side outweighs the other. That is not the Gospel. The only way to heaven is through Christ and the grace he freely offers, as long as you are open to receiving it.

Purgatory is simply the burning away of attachment to and love for earthly things that cannot go with us into heaven.


As for me... it's been a while, and frankly my struggles are not with believing Church teaching in my head, but with living it out in my heart and in my actions. I have some pretty strong attachments to things that sometimes feel like a strong burden, though slowly and not so steadily I'm learning to focus on our hope in Christ, refusing to settle for "good enough" and accepting the challenge to draw a little closer, especially in my prayer routine (if you can call it a routine ).

[Brother Adam]

It is a struggle anytime I don't get to live my life however I want to. Then I remember God's ways are not my ways, and his ways are ultimately better for me and will make me happier than my own ways.

[Oliver]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1925580' date='Jul 20 2009, 04:16 PM']How do you know homosexual attraction is created by God? Nobody is perfect, but our imperfections are not God's fault, nor are they reason to judge others.[/quote]
Homosexual attraction isn't chosen and the majority have expressed they were born like they were. So im confused what you are trying to say.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1925580' date='Jul 20 2009, 04:16 PM']The Catholic view is that sexual intimacy serves to unify husband and wife [i]and[/i] create new life. Not one or the other: both.[/quote]
Since contraception cannot be used then sex most of the time will create new life. And other natural methods such as the rhythm method are known to be very unreliable.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1925580' date='Jul 20 2009, 04:16 PM']Purgatory is simply the burning away of attachment to and love for earthly things that cannot go with us into heaven.[/quote]
Thanks, that is a very good way of looking at it.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Oliver

[Winchester]

[quote name='philothea' post='1925309' date='Jul 20 2009, 12:28 AM'][i]sigh[/i]

Contraception. Not that I specifically am at all interested in contraception (I'd be delighted to have a dozen kids, honestly) but certain contraceptive medications are the only cure to a debilitating medical condition I have. Not debilitating enough to kill me; just enough that, after puberty, I couldn't go to school, have a job, or... ironically... take care of children.

I'm trying to do the right thing, but maybe I'm just being stupid. I don't know.[/quote]
When taken for that purpose, it is more than likely morally licit.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1925434' date='Jul 20 2009, 12:32 AM']Before I knew better (and I'd like to stress that bit) I would have been considered dissenting on the Church's position on homosexuality, because of certain opinions I'm exposed to in my day to day life.[/quote]

Considering you've grown up where it is legal for homosexuals to marry, and if you publicly speak out against it, you get hauled before the human rights commission, that's not surprising.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Oliver' post='1925597' date='Jul 20 2009, 11:57 AM']Since contraception cannot be used then sex most of the time will create new life. And other natural methods such as the rhythm method are known to be very unreliable.[/quote]
Actually that's not true.

A woman is fertile for only about 24-48 hours, less if she is older. While it's true that sex prior to that time in the cycle can achieve a pregnancy, after the window is passed a woman cannot get pregnant. On top of that, even on the most fertile day of a woman's cycle, there is less than a 50 percent chance of achieving pregnancy.

Properly used, several forms of Natural Family Planning can be of great assistance to a family in helping to legitimately regulate births in a family. Using NFP, a couple becomes intimately familiar with a woman's cycle of fertile and non-fertile days, and can use this information either to actively seek pregnancy or avoid it. [url="http://www.woomb.org/omrrca/bulletin/vol27/no4/chinaEvaluation.html"]Consider this study in China,[/url] which (in part) compares the Billings Ovulation Method to an IUD and found the former to be more effective in helping couples avoid pregnancy -- and women were more likely to continue using Billings.

NFP works WITH natural cycles rather than against them. On top of that, it does a lot more to encourage HUMAN development. Animals copulate whenever they feel like it. Human beings have the capacity to develop self-control, and to employ reason in determining their actions. NFP encourages this, but contraceptive mean couples can trample all over the way they're made. The sex act itself becomes the focus, not the persons involved in it.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Terra Firma

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1925549' date='Jul 20 2009, 04:56 AM']Before I converted I struggled a bit with Marian stuff. I accepted it, but I didn't understand it nor did I want to "participate" in Marian devotion. But I'm over that now. ;-)[/quote]
yeah, i still struggle with it. i 'get' that Mary is our mother, and i encourage that with my little girl, but i'd rather do Liturgy of the Hours over the rosary any day.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1925580' date='Jul 20 2009, 08:16 AM']As for me... it's been a while, and frankly my struggles are not with believing Church teaching in my head, but with living it out in my heart and in my actions. I have some pretty strong attachments to things that sometimes feel like a strong burden, though slowly and not so steadily I'm learning to focus on our hope in Christ, refusing to settle for "good enough" and accepting the challenge to draw a little closer, especially in my prayer routine (if you can call it a routine ).[/quote]
yes, agreed, definitely.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1925647' date='Jul 20 2009, 01:29 PM']Actually that's not true.

A woman is fertile for only about 24-48 hours, less if she is older. While it's true that sex prior to that time in the cycle can achieve a pregnancy, after the window is passed a woman cannot get pregnant. On top of that, even on the most fertile day of a woman's cycle, there is less than a 50 percent chance of achieving pregnancy.

Properly used, several forms of Natural Family Planning can be of great assistance to a family in helping to legitimately regulate births in a family. Using NFP, a couple becomes intimately familiar with a woman's cycle of fertile and non-fertile days, and can use this information either to actively seek pregnancy or avoid it. [url="http://www.woomb.org/omrrca/bulletin/vol27/no4/chinaEvaluation.html"]Consider this study in China,[/url] which (in part) compares the Billings Ovulation Method to an IUD and found the former to be more effective in helping couples avoid pregnancy -- and women were more likely to continue using Billings.

NFP works WITH natural cycles rather than against them. On top of that, it does a lot more to encourage HUMAN development. Animals copulate whenever they feel like it. Human beings have the capacity to develop self-control, and to employ reason in determining their actions. NFP encourages this, but contraceptive mean couples can trample all over the way they're made. The sex act itself becomes the focus, not the persons involved in it.[/quote]


a women is fertile more than 1-2 days a month.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1925630' date='Jul 20 2009, 11:58 AM']Considering you've grown up where it is legal for homosexuals to marry, and if you publicly speak out against it, you get hauled before the human rights commission, that's not surprising.[/quote]
I have a feeling that this is part of it. My only real problem though, comes from the opinions of certain people close to me.

[Marie-Therese]

You know, its funny...coming from a Protestant upbringing where Mariology is akin to being Satanist, Marian devotion is one of the issues I have had the LEAST problem with. I think that is just a grace given to a "spiritual basket case" as Fr. Corapi says. LOL But I am very drawn to Our Lady and have a very close relationship with her. The Rosary is one of the reasons I came to the Church...I just got a view of the faith from Mary's eyes that couldn't have come any other way.

I guess I look to her so much because she is everything that I fail miserably at in terms of being faithful, and feminine...I lack severely in the girly department. You are a lot more likely to find me with a beer and a football game than with hairbows and such. I have learned much about true feminine beauty from Mother.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1925600' date='Jul 20 2009, 12:02 PM']When taken for that purpose, it is more than likely morally licit.[/quote]


winchester is correct. i have done a tone of research on this subject and read tons of stuff from scholors and priests. as long as the purpose of taking the contraceptive birth control pill is not to avoid pregnancy but instead to treat a medical problem, taking said pill is ok.