Original Sin

[willguy]

[quote]first, answer my question, then I'll answer yours[/quote]

Technically, you didn't ask any questions. Now, if you are refering to a type of sin that doesn't fit the category, I gave you an answer. Original sin. It doesn't fit the definiton you gave. That said, where does the Bible say that sin is sin? Where does it say that the one sentence definition of sin that you gave is the full definition of sin?

[quote]but what sin has the child COMMITED, and what CHOICE has the CHILD MADE? [/quote] The child is born with original sin because that is the nature of humanity. We are born with the stain of sin.

[quote]Sola Fide is undeniable. its written about throughout the whole New Testament. Sola Scriptura is undeniable. its written about throughout the whole Bible as well. The age of reason? deduced from the scriptures and common sense...
[/quote] Give me a second to pull myself off the floor and stop laughing. Ok, I'm better now. Anyways, I don't want to turn this into an arguement about these subjects, so let me just say you ought to take a look at the reference section that phatcatholic has compiled.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]let me know how a baby can choose salvation?

let me know how a baby can choose ANYTHING....

a child in born IN sin...and inherits sin...but its not born with sin.[/quote]

It's called ORIGINAL SIN. A baby can't choose salvation...that is why they go to Limbo and not the Hell of the damned. Yet, as Our Lord taught, Baptism is necessary for salvation, so they cannot be saved, for they have not Baptism. God bless.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 1 2004, 02:58 AM'] "but to him that knows to do good, and does it not...to him it is sin."

and the wages of sin is death.


soooooo, let me know how a newborn child can know the difference between good and evil?

let me know how a baby can choose salvation?

let me know how a baby can choose ANYTHING....

a child in born IN sin...and inherits sin...but its not born with sin.

ELSE, WHY WOULD HAVE CHRIST SAID Mat 19:14 "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

and even you guys say that they were babies they brought to him...infants and toddlers...barely capable of walking...much less of making an ETERNAL decision with their soul.

or had their parents baptized them already? because the Bible makes no reference to this.... [/quote]
A newborn child, born with Original Sin, cannot choose salvation, but the responsible parents can choose Baptism for the child. Original Sin is the inheritance of our first parents sin. Baptism is entrance into the kingdom and erases the Original Sin.
The Church considers the age of reason to be 7.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
4/2 - St. Francis of Paola

And what, then, becomes of the Holy Innocents under this thought? The Holy Innocents, though unbaptized, are officially martyrs and enjoy the Beatific Vision. We [u]seem[/u] to have a case where the unbaptized are in Heaven.

What of St. Augustine, who says, "Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes" (City of God VIII)?

And what of the Council of Trent, which says, "...and this translation [from a child of Adam to a child of God] after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver [water] of regeneration, or a [i]desire for it[/i]" (Decree on Justification, 4)?

Now, for the baptism of children to be valid, the intention either of the parents must be present (since the child cannot intend to be baptized on his own). Trent (cf. above) clearly indicates that a desire for baptism could translate one from being a child of Adam to a child of God. Is it [i]entirely impossible[/i] that the desire of the parents for the baptism of their child is able to act in the way Trent describes?

I do not wish to destroy the thought on Limbo, I just think it's necessary to remember that it ain't decided because it's got lots of problems. It's not out of a desire to feel all warm and pretty that I don't believe in Limbo, it's that, in light of the "baptism by desire" as presented above as well as the "baptism of blood" as shown by the example of the Holy Innocents, that I cannot [i]make sense[/i] of the belief.

Thoughts?

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]The Church considers the age of reason to be 7. [/quote]

Actually, the Church says the AVERAGE age of use is seven. The definition of the age of use is when one realizes what sin is and can choose right or wrong.

The Holy Innocents were in the OLD TESTAMENT....ther wasn't Baptism...besides, they died in place of Our Lord...that's not the same as some drug addict prostitute having her fourth abortion.

God bless.

[DojoGrant]

Catholic Crusader,

Should all infants be baptised the moment they come out of the womb?

If not, is it acceptable to wait until a Sunday soon after to have the baby baptised?

If so, does a baby die unsaved because it was not baptised immediately out of the womb and dies before that day of Baptism comes?

If not (because baptism was desired), then wouldn't it also follow that Christian parents who desire baptism for their child after birth hold that desire for him/her even while in the womb? Wouldn't then that baby be covered under the baptism of desire?

[phatcatholic]

lumberjack,

for you, some verses in support of original sin--and the result of original sin--both of which seem to fall outside the one verse you are using as THE definition of sin.

[color=blue]Gen. 2:17 - the day you eat of that tree, you shall die. Adam and Eve ate of the tree, and they spiritually died. Some Protestant communities ignore or deny the reality of original sin. But if there is no original sin, then we do not need a Savior either. The horrors of our world testify to the reality of original sin.

Gen. 3:14-19 - God's punishment for eating of the tree was cursing satan, increasing women's pain in childbirth, and condemning man to toil and labor for his whole life.

Job 14:1,4 - man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? All humans are afflicted with original sin.

Psalm 51:5 - I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. We have inherited Adam's sin from the moment of our conception.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came into the world through one man, Adam, and death came through this sin.

Rom. 5:14 - death reigned from Adam to Moses, born from Adam's original sin. This is a mystery we do not fully understand, but we must all acknowledge our propensity toward evil and our need of God.

Rom. 5:16 - the judgment following one single trespass brought condemnation for all.

Rom. 5:19 - by one man's disobedience many were made sinners. Original sin is passed on as part of the human condition, and only God in the flesh could atone for our sins by the eternal sacrifice of Himself.

1 Cor. 15:21 - for by one man came death. In Adam, all die. In Christ, the new Adam, all now may live.

Eph. 2:1-3 - we were all dead through sin and all lived in the passions of our flesh until Christ came to save us.[/color]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[the lumberjack]

i FULLY recognize those scriptures as valid PhatCath, but we are born into sin, and with a sinful nature, and born with the sin stain of Adam, true enough...

but HOW can you condemn someone to hell, or even "Limbo" (though I don't know why you'd condemn a poor child to listening eternally to that horrible song ) , that has COMMITED NO SIN, and can MAKE NO choice for itself?

hypothetical:
can I blame you for the abortions that happen every day? you live on earth...seems good enough reason to me to condemn you along with them.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Apr 2 2004, 07:52 AM'] JMJ
4/2 - St. Francis of Paola

And what, then, becomes of the Holy Innocents under this thought? The Holy Innocents, though unbaptized, are officially martyrs and enjoy the Beatific Vision. We [u]seem[/u] to have a case where the unbaptized are in Heaven.

What of St. Augustine, who says, "Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes" (City of God VIII)?

And what of the Council of Trent, which says, "...and this translation [from a child of Adam to a child of God] after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver [water] of regeneration, or a [i]desire for it[/i]" (Decree on Justification, 4)?

Now, for the baptism of children to be valid, the intention either of the parents must be present (since the child cannot intend to be baptized on his own). Trent (cf. above) clearly indicates that a desire for baptism could translate one from being a child of Adam to a child of God. Is it [i]entirely impossible[/i] that the desire of the parents for the baptism of their child is able to act in the way Trent describes?

I do not wish to destroy the thought on Limbo, I just think it's necessary to remember that it ain't decided because it's got lots of problems. It's not out of a desire to feel all warm and pretty that I don't believe in Limbo, it's that, in light of the "baptism by desire" as presented above as well as the "baptism of blood" as shown by the example of the Holy Innocents, that I cannot [i]make sense[/i] of the belief.

Thoughts? [/quote]
Pio Nono,

Weren't the Holy Innocents still under the Old Covenant, since Baptism had not yet been instituted?

In their case, then, they would have been with the group of Souls that Christ met when he descended to Hades.

Also noteworth is the fact that these children died specifically because of Christ. Had the "wisemen" not mentioned the New King, these Children would not have died. Therefore, indeed, they were the proto-proto-martyrs, dying in the place of Christ. Though not by their own will did they die, but by the circumstances were they attached to the doctrine of "Baptism of blood".


In the case of the Children of the New Covenant:

The Catechism specifically talkes about this, under the subject of Baptism. It does NOT support the idea of Limbo. However, it does state that, from what has been revealed to us, the Children who now die without Baptism are excluded from the Beatific Vision.

Again, the Church leaves this open since there "could" be another avenue for Salvation that has not yet been revealed to the Church. We are bound by the Sacraments, that which has been revealed to us. But God is not bound by the Sacraments.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 2 2004, 12:32 PM'] but HOW can you condemn someone to hell, or even "Limbo" (though I don't know why you'd condemn a poor child to listening eternally to that horrible song ) , that has COMMITED NO SIN, and can MAKE NO choice for itself? [/quote]
because original sin leads to death just as much as actual, or committed, sin.

to continue to state your claim, you are going to have to prove to me that original sin does not condemn.

[quote]hypothetical:
can I blame you for the abortions that happen every day?  you live on earth...seems good enough reason to me to condemn you along with them.[/quote]
i'm not sure how this relates to what we're talking about. you may have a misunderstanding about what we are saying about original sin. these articles might help:

[b]--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/REPAR.TXT"]Sin and Its Effects[/url]
--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm"]Original Sin[/url]
--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm"]Sin[/url][/b]

pax christi,
phatcatholic