willguy Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 When is original sin imparted upon a person? Conception? Birth? The reason I ask is because it would affect babies who are aborted or who are miscarried. Can even original sin be removed in purgatory, or must that be removed through baptism and then other sins are purged in purgatory (should this question be a seperate thread)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 In the [i]Summa[/i], doesn't Aquinas argue that Original Sin is there whenever death can occur. He argue that original sin must exist and that babies are not born sinless or else they would not die, sort of like Adam and Eve before the Fall because sin allows death. So it would therefore exist in the womb because unborn babies can either be killed or die by themselves. I dunno for sure, but I remember reading something about this in the [i]Summa[/i] once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Mary was concieved with out original sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 [quote]When is original sin imparted upon a person? Conception? Birth? [/quote] Original sin is imparted when the soul is imparted. [quote]Can even original sin be removed in purgatory, or must that be removed through baptism and then other sins are purged in purgatory[/quote] ONLY Baptism can forgive Original Sin. However, St. Thomas Aquinas writes in the Summa Theologica that this is the least of all sins; therefore, one dying with ONLY Original Sin receives the least harsh punishment (Limbo). Baptism is, of course, necessary for salvation, and these babies are not baptised. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willguy Posted March 31, 2004 Author Share Posted March 31, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Mar 31 2004, 04:51 PM'] therefore, one dying with ONLY Original Sin receives the least harsh punishment (Limbo). Baptism is, of course, necessary for salvation, and these babies are not baptised. [/quote] I seem to remember that the Church taught that unbaptized infants are in the hands of God, that we do not know what their punishment is or is not. Couldn't the babies go through purgatory to have original sin removed and then heaven because they never had the opportunity to be baptized (sort of a baptism of desire)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 I've always understood that the unbaptized babies would fall under the baptism of desire category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 If Mary was conceived without original sin, then it would follow that that's where everyone else receives original sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 [quote]I seem to remember that the Church taught that unbaptized infants are in the hands of God, that we do not know what their punishment is or is not[/quote] No, the Church teaches that Baptism is necessary. We know that those who die outside the Church or without Baptism cannot be saved. Babies have neither Baptism nor existance in the Church. [quote]Couldn't the babies go through purgatory to have original sin removed and then heaven because they never had the opportunity to be baptized (sort of a baptism of desire)? [/quote] 1) We don't know for sure if there even is a Baptism of Desire that God uses as a means of Salvation 2) the Babies have no desire to be Baptised...that is why when people talk abotu "Outtside the Church no salvation" it is stupid to always discuss the supposed "exceptions", which we don't even know if God uses because people come away with ideas that this is a "Baptism of Desire" whern there is clearly no desire whatsoever...the Church defined the Dogma without listing any "exceptions"; there is no need for us to analyize them. We need, rather, to convert all to the one True Church. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 "but to him that knows to do good, and does it not...to him it is sin." and the wages of sin is death. soooooo, let me know how a newborn child can know the difference between good and evil? let me know how a baby can choose salvation? let me know how a baby can choose ANYTHING.... a child in born IN sin...and inherits sin...but its not born with sin. ELSE, WHY WOULD HAVE CHRIST SAID Mat 19:14 "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." and even you guys say that they were babies they brought to him...infants and toddlers...barely capable of walking...much less of making an ETERNAL decision with their soul. or had their parents baptized them already? because the Bible makes no reference to this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willguy Posted April 1, 2004 Author Share Posted April 1, 2004 [quote]"but to him that knows to do good, and does it not...to him it is sin." and the wages of sin is death. soooooo, let me know how a newborn child can know the difference between good and evil? [/quote] You're asuming that this one verse contains the full and only definition of sin. [quote]ELSE, WHY WOULD HAVE CHRIST SAID Mat 19:14 "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." [/quote] Jesus was making a metaphor, saying we must have "child-like" faith and trust in God. [quote]and even you guys say that they were babies they brought to him...infants and toddlers...barely capable of walking...much less of making an ETERNAL decision with their soul. [/quote] Who is "you guys" and where did they say that? [quote]because the Bible makes no reference to this.... [/quote] And? Now, I don't know whether or not the children had been baptized, and it really doesn't matter, but you've got to learn that saying "The Bible does not explicitly say _____" is not a valid arguement around here. The Bible doesn't explicitly say a lot of things that Catholics believe (as well as several key Protestant beliefs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 [quote name='willguy' date='Apr 1 2004, 11:44 AM'] [/quote] [quote]You're asuming that this one verse contains the full and only definition of sin.[/quote] doesn't it? something you KNOW you're supposed to do...something that the Lord INSTRUCTED you to do, or NOT do...if you do it, or not...is that not sin? [quote]Jesus was making a metaphor, saying we must have "child-like" faith and trust in God.[/quote] and why would he choose an INNOCENT child for us to have faith like? why not a teenager? because children ARE innocent...and because when they are very young, they know to trust their father completely. [quote]Who is "you guys" and where did they say that?[/quote] "you guys" is other catholics on this board...and I don't remember where... [quote]And? Now, I don't know whether or not the children had been baptized, and it really doesn't matter,[/quote] how can it not? why would Jesus called SINFUL, DIRTY, DOOMED children to Himself? why would WE as CHRISTIANS be called to have faith as a child if they're NOT innocent? [quote]but you've got to learn that saying "The Bible does not explicitly say _____" is not a valid arguement around here. The Bible doesn't explicitly say a lot of things that Catholics believe (as well as several key Protestant beliefs).[/quote] and saying that YOUR church has 2000 years of "tradition" holds as much weight with us "protestants". and could you list the protestant beliefs you speak of? peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willguy Posted April 1, 2004 Author Share Posted April 1, 2004 [quote]doesn't it? [/quote] Does it claim to? For example, I could say that love is the feeling between a parent and child. That is true. But it is not the only definition of love. That verse gives A definition of sin, but does not claim to be THE definition of sin. [quote]why would Jesus called SINFUL, DIRTY, DOOMED children to Himself? [/quote] I've got news for you, you're sinful, dirty, and (except by the grace of God) doomed. [quote]why would WE as CHRISTIANS be called to have faith as a child if they're NOT innocent?[/quote] Why do people praise Paul for his willingness to suffer if he was not innocent? Child-like faith means a complete trust that God will always be there for us and loving him with all our heart, the same way a child trusts and loves his/her parents. [quote]and could you list the protestant beliefs you speak of? [/quote] The terms Trinity, Sola Scriptura, and Sola Fide come to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 [quote]Does it claim to? For example, I could say that love is the feeling between a parent and child. That is true. But it is not the only definition of love. That verse gives A definition of sin, but does not claim to be THE definition of sin.[/quote] there are different TYPES of love...as far as I knew sin is sin...and the verse, especially when its Christ speaking, doesn't HAVE to claim that its THE definition. give me ANY OTHER definition of sin that would NOT fall in the guidlines of that verse, please. [quote]I've got news for you, you're sinful, dirty, and (except by the grace of God) doomed.[/quote] thats why Christ DIDN'T use midtwenties Mexican Sailors as the example of faith to have. He used pure, innocent children. [quote]Why do people praise Paul for his willingness to suffer if he was not innocent?[/quote] because Christ said, "for my name you shall suffer" and "in my name you shall be persecuted" and "the world will HATE YOU, because it HATED ME first." and Paul didn't care who or what tried to tear him down, he wouldn't let go of God. [quote]The terms Trinity, Sola Scriptura, and Sola Fide come to mind.[/quote] so are you saying that Catholics believe a PROTESTANT belief? I speak of the trinity here. as for the second two: amen and amen. love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willguy Posted April 1, 2004 Author Share Posted April 1, 2004 [quote]as far as I knew sin is sin[/quote] Where does the Bible say that? [quote]give me ANY OTHER definition of sin that would NOT fall in the guidlines of that verse, please. [/quote] Original sin. The Paul question was rhetorical. We can use people as examples of faith even if they aren't perfect. Just because Christ praised the faith of a child doesn't mean that children are perfect. [quote]so are you saying that Catholics believe a PROTESTANT belief? [/quote] You wish. What I was getting at is that Catholics have no problem with having beliefs that are not explicitly scirptural, while protestants claim to have a problem with it but in practice do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 [quote]Where does the Bible say that?[/quote] first, answer my question, then I'll answer yours. [quote]Original sin.[/quote] but what sin has the child COMMITED, and what CHOICE has the CHILD MADE? if a choice can not be made, then how can you condemn? [quote]The Paul question was rhetorical.[/quote] don't ask questions you don't want the answer to. [quote]You wish.[/quote] hahahahaha [quote]What I was getting at is that Catholics have no problem with having beliefs that are not explicitly scirptural, while protestants claim to have a problem with it but in practice do not.[/quote] the Trinity is undeniable. its written about throughout the whole Bible. Sola Fide is undeniable. its written about throughout the whole New Testament. Sola Scriptura is undeniable. its written about throughout the whole Bible as well. The age of reason? deduced from the scriptures and common sense... love. oh, and you still haven't answered ALL of my past posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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