OraProMe Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 You're assuming that being friends with someone means you approve of all their actions. Furthermore it wouldn't give scandal to someone who knew you because, like I said before, scandal means leading others to sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Should I, therefore, dissolve all friendships with my male friends because they could possibly cause my eyes to linger? Should I leave my boyfriend then because we are very attracted to one another, and have to be very cautious about how we express that? I don't know about you guys, but walking out of my house in the morning can be a near occasion of sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartjp2 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1922308' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:32 AM']If by being friends with a sinner the impression is given that one approves of that person's sin then it would have the appearance of evil. If I went around town with a girl dressed in lingerie, it would probably give scandal to someone who knew me.[/quote] Um, what ever happened to "That's [i]their[/i] problem"? As I said before, if this person won't come to your face and (or even text you) about the matter, then don't they have the right to be scandalized? You're missing the role that communication has to clear things up and dispell scandal. That's why we have it, among other reasons. Besides, who the heck walks around town in lingerie and why would you be with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 This entire world is an occasion of sin. Unless you want to become insular and contract a bad case of tunnel-vision I suggest you re-think the way you engage with the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' post='1922311' date='Jul 17 2009, 12:36 AM']You're assuming that being friends with someone means you approve of all their actions. Furthermore it wouldn't give scandal to someone who knew you because, like I said before, scandal means leading others to sin.[/quote] The action in my example certainly would provide an occasion of sin to another. It could lead another to think that wearing lingerie in public is morally acceptable or could lead another to rash judgment of me. An example of scandal given by this text is someone known to be Catholic eating meat on a Friday publicly. In the example, the Catholic has a disposition. Even so, the text states that he should inform those with him of the disposition or eat the meat privately (if doing so does not pose a grave inconvenience) lest he lead others to think that eating meat on Friday is acceptable to all or to rashly judge him. Edited July 17, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartjp2 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) You know, this type of thing is what annoys me about most orthodox Catholics in general. I'm as orthodox, conservative, w/e as the next guy, but I don't think that cutting yourself off from anyone you disagree with is the answer to the world's problems. Lots of people view us as "holier-than-thou", pretentious, snotty people and time and again, they're proven right. You don't have to agree with anyone on anything that conflicts with your views, but to deny someone your friendship when they may be in dire need of a [i]true[/i] friend, that goes beyond how others look at you. Don't you realize that it's not about [i]us[/i] (us being the scandalous or the scandalized) but it's about God and how he sees fit to move? He can do ANYTHING. Why don't we just follow his example and give love, charity, and yes, even friendship to those who need it from us? Edited July 17, 2009 by iheartjp2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1922288' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:22 AM']Christ was friends with sinners He asked to repent or they where repentant. I'd like to know where Christ made friends with a unrepentant sinner, honestly I can't think of one.[/quote] Nor can I offhand, but to play Devil's Advocate, which I enjoy sometimes, like in this thread...Nicodemus. He doubted. So did Thomas and Philip. Saint Thomas and Saint Philip are portrayed with the saintly halos in Christian artwork. Nicodemus however, we do not know if he truly came to believe. He is never portrayed with the saintly halo, not even in the Stations of the Cross depictions when he goes with Saint Joseph of Arimethea to take down the body of the Lord from the Cross. Therefore since we can not be sure of the state of Nicodemus heart when he died, we can not be assured if he was a repentant sinner or not. Despite that some sources claim he is a Saint venerated on August 3rd. [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1922298' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:28 AM']If Christ did give scandal, He would have done so for a grave reason. Committing an action that would be scandalous is acceptable for a grave reason. Also, those to whom He could have given scandal might have been so depraved that His actions really had no influence on their being scandalized. (They would have been scandalized no matter what He did). In that case the sin of scandal would not have been committed.[/quote] It's quite possible they would have been scandalized no matter what He did, however it is quite difficult to judge any man's heart, let alone those long dead. We know from both the Bible and from secular historical texts that those groups which so persecuted Christ were hardly a united lot; one example being that of Saint Joseph of Arimathea, who was most likely a member of the Sanhedrin himself. Although to use your own example of walking through town with a woman in lingerie; a holy man that is known and revered does so. Does he lead others into sin in your opinion, or is he giving grave cause to do so in the hopes of shocking people out of their depravity? This seems to be the way of scandal you are ascribing to Christ so as to escape the implied reasoning that by causing scandal one engages in a grave and mortal sin, which is something that He who was without sin would be unable to accomplish. Edited July 17, 2009 by BG45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='iheartjp2' post='1922330' date='Jul 17 2009, 12:48 AM']You know, this type of thing is what annoys me about most orthodox Catholics in general. I'm as orthodox, conservative, w/e as the next guy, but I don't think that cutting yourself off from anyone you disagree with is the answer to the world's problems. Lots of people view us as "holier-than-thou", pretentious, snotty people and time and again, they're proven right. You don't have to agree with anyone on anything that conflicts with your views, but to deny someone your friendship when they may be in dire need of a [i]true[/i] friend, that goes beyond how others look at you. Don't you realize that it's not about [i]us[/i] (us being the scandalous or the scandalized) but it's about God and how he sees fit to move? He can do ANYTHING. Why don't we just follow his example and give love, charity, and yes, even friendship to those who need it from us?[/quote] If someone is truly in dire need of a true friend, I don't think that any scandal caused by that relationship would be unnecessary. As has been stated, one can commit an action that would otherwise be scandalous for a grave reason. Edited July 17, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Pretty lame example. Anyone that thinks "Because Resurrexi does it means it's alright" either doesn't know their faith very well or is far to wrapped up in you. It seems pretty naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1922344' date='Jul 17 2009, 12:56 AM']Pretty lame example. Anyone that thinks "Because Resurrexi does it means it's alright" either doesn't know their faith very well or is far to wrapped up in you. It seems pretty naive.[/quote] Perhaps my example wasn't wonderful, but it isn't much different than the example of a Catholic with a disposition from abstinence eating meat on a Friday in Lent in public without a good reason and without letting those eating with him know that he has a disposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 The example from the book is pretty lame too. Any sane person would just think "he's not a very good catholic" or "he's just breaking the rule". It's still based on the presumption that because X does this it must be acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1922358' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:04 AM']The example from the book is pretty lame too. Any sane person would just think "he's not a very good catholic" or "he's just breaking the rule". It's still based on the presumption that because X does this it must be acceptable.[/quote] Many people aren't very informed about their obligations as Catholics. For this reason, any Catholic well-educated about his faith needs to give the best example he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 No he doesn't. It's the individuals responsibility to be educated about their faith not yours. Besides, you can easily tell them what their obligations without isolating yourself from anyone who doesn't behave impeccably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenseeker Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 idk. but hate the sin, love the sinner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1922404' date='Jul 17 2009, 01:18 AM']No he doesn't. It's the individuals responsibility to be educated about their faith not yours.[/quote] This kind of attitude will never help restore morals to society. It may be each one's responsibility to educate himself about his obligations, but we also are called to help others become better Catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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